Who attacks the Hobbit rooms?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
The text strongly inticates that the Witch-King was aiming for a killing blow to the heart. Only Frodo's courage (or foolishness) in charging and attacking caused the blow to miss, saving his life.

It does not say that. As Gandalf indicates in Many Meetings - the goal was for them to take Frodo over to their side - that is why they were able to bide their time. They were aiming for the heart - but it would NOT have "killed" him.

"I have known strong warriors of the Big People who would have quickly have been overcome by that splinter, which you bore for seventeen days...

They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are; only weaker and under their command. You would have become a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord; and he would have tormented you for trying to keep his Ring; if any greater torment were possibe than being robbed of it and seeing it in his hand."

...They did not need the guidance of their of their horses any longer: you had become visible to them, being already on the threshold of their world.

Gandalf's first and last comments support that the sliver would have ultimately had the same result had he been struck directly in the heart, but the splinter was enough for the job - or so they thought. It would have been immediate had they struck the heart - but they did feel they could bide their time since Frodo was required to bear the wound for 17 days.

But even that wound was enough, given the potency of the weapon used, that the Nazgul did not feel the need to essay another attack.

They didn't have to - they were just waiting for Frodo to succumb to the wound.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Attalus
But, if they were so powerful, why didn't they just kill Frodo and take the Ring? Why all of the sneak-around, they could just take it?

They attempted several times to kill Frodo. They just couldn't come out into the open to do it. And they were weakened during the day.

When they were horsed, the Nazgûl overwhelmed the Dúnedain at Sarn Ford and killed and ran off many, according to UT.

That's unfinished tales - by Christopher Tolkien - collected from JRR Tolkien's notes - it's not necessarily the truth of something that happened though.

Unhorsed, all they could do was to try to poison/bewitch him. My point is proved in that they couldn't even attack Frodo with the Morgul-knife until he put on the Ring,

That's not true - the ring is what told them which ONE was frodo. Could you pick out one person out of four you had never met and guess who is who? They only had one chance to stab the right Hobbit. The Ring just showed them who it was.

and they screwed that up by stabbing him in the shoulder instead of the heart. You cannot tell me with a straight face that if they could have killed Aragorn and simply picked up the Ring, they would not have.

I didn't say they could. There power was in psychological terror - not physically attacking. They had ONE goal and that was to get the Ring - as quickly as possible and with the least amount of problems and danger. Using the Morgul Blade and running off - would have accomplished that if Frodo was not so strong.

(side note - this is one of my big problems with those damn movies Jackson made, the nazgul have become more physical- than psychological.)

No, I think the Nazgûl unmounted were quite weak, hence Gandalf's comment that, after the Ford of Bruinen, they had to make their way back to their master as best they could.

At that point they weren't just unhoresed - but unclocked. They had no form at that time.

And, Merry's blade or no, if he were all that powerful, he could have still defended himself. It was Éowyn, not Merry, that killed him.

That has always been in question - and I think it is the combination of the two that is what killed him.

[Attalus]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I didn't say they could. There power was in psychological terror - not physically attacking. They had ONE goal and that was to get the Ring - as quickly as possible and with the least amount of problems and danger. Using the Morgul Blade and running off - would have accomplished that if Frodo was not so strong.

(side note - this is one of my big problems with those damn movies Jackson made, the nazgul have become more physical- than psychological.)



That has always been in question - and I think it is the combination of the two that is what killed him.

Well, I definitely agree that their power was in terror. Not so hard to stab a man who is cowering in fear. And I agree that thinking the Morgul-knife would overcome Frodo was a miscalculation, pure and simple. As for the W-K, I think that Merry's blade obviated some or all of his magical defenses, leaving him wide open to Éowyn's stroke.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

"As for the W-K, I think that Merry's blade obviated some or all of his magical defenses, leaving him wide open to Éowyn's stroke"

that has always been my understanding of what took place.

Back to Bree for a moment!

I still have a problem with the wraiths entering the hobbit room in Bree though, because that means that either they didn’t know the ring was elsewhere, (and that just doesn’t seem to fit) or they knew it wasn’t there but went in anyway to perhaps look for clues (except they’re blind?)

Perhaps the wraiths could sense that the ring was not in the room and at that point instructed the villagers to go in and find out if there was any indication of where the hobbits had gone. This could also explain Crickhollow, perhaps they also knew that the ring was not there but thought they could blackbreath whoever answered the door and learn something.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
I still have a problem with the wraiths entering the hobbit room in Bree though, because that means that either they didn’t know the ring was elsewhere, (and that just doesn’t seem to fit) or they knew it wasn’t there but went in anyway to perhaps look for clues (except they’re blind?)

Perhaps the wraiths could sense that the ring was not in the room and at that point instructed the villagers to go in and find out if there was any indication of where the hobbits had gone. This could also explain Crickhollow, perhaps they also knew that the ring was not there but thought they could blackbreath whoever answered the door and learn something.

The ring was never a pin point accuracy thing - except if Frodo was wearing it - or if it was right there in front of them, or the closer the Ring gets to Mordor.

Frodo was at the Prancing Pony and they would have sensed that, but it would not have told them that he was right there in front of them. Also - who knows how strongly they would have been sensing it with Frodo being asleep.

There had to be a conscious connection between the Ring Wraiths and the Ring Bearer - as indicated on the road to Crickhollow. Frodo's thoughts of putting on the Ring - seem to draw them even closer. The Ring gives them an idea of where it is - but it's the Ring Bearer's thoughts that narrow it down and then if he puts it on they can ultimately see him clearly. So I think there are three levels of the Rings power on drawing the Ring Wraiths to Frodo. With Frodo beng asleep the Ring's power to draw the Black Riders is the weakest and therefore they are stabbing in the dark.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Radar?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Radar?

I guess basically that is what it would be. The yget a sense of where the ring is - that is all and then the strength of that feeling is determined by other factors.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

The sleeping angle is interesting, I’ve never thought of that before. I’m still just a little bit troubled by the image of several wraiths leaning over an open window ledge into a small Inn room still not knowing whether the ring is present or not. They would be within a matter of feet at that point. Maybe I just don’t like the idea that my favorite villains are so easily deceived.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
I’m still just a little bit troubled by the image of several wraiths leaning over an open window ledge into a small Inn room still not knowing whether the ring is present or not. They would be within a matter of feet at that point.

i don't think they were leaning in through the window ledge. I think they were told where the hobbits were going to be staying - confirmed it and assumed that later on in the middle of the night - they would be able to walk into the room and they would be there.

Where did you get that they were leaning over an open window ledge?

Maybe I just don’t like the idea that my favorite villains are so easily deceived.

I don't think they were decieved based on what I said above. I do think they had their limits though. They weren't all knowing.

hate to bring movie into here again - but you must have been really pissed then at how weak jackson made them - going so far as having the Ring only a couple of feet in front of it and then flying off after having a couple of arrows shot at it.

[Sister Golden Hair]

i don't think they were leaning in through the window ledge. I think they were told where the hobbits were going to be staying - confirmed it and assumed that later on in the middle of the night - they would be able to walk into the room and they would be there.

Maybe they just knew the ways of Hobbits. Maybe they learned from Saruman, who learned from Gandalf. It was pretty common knowledge that Hobbits didn't like high places and prefered to sleep on the ground floor. I mean, doesn't Butterbur even offer them these rooms, just because they are Hobbits and that was what those particular rooms were made to accommodate?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Maybe they just knew the ways of Hobbits. Maybe they learned from Saruman, who learned from Gandalf. It was pretty common knowledge that Hobbits didn't like high places and prefered to sleep on the ground floor. I mean, doesn't Butterbur even offer them these rooms, just because they are Hobbits and that was what those particular rooms were made to accommodate?

Yes - but I don't think they leaned over or came in through the window. I can't really picture a Ring Wraith as trying to climb over a window ledge to get into the room. It would be in a comedic version of the Lord of the Rings - Ring Wraith lifts up his leg to try getting in the window, hits his head, his robe gets tangled outside, he trips over it and falls flat on his face. Surprised Jackson didn't film it like that.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Attalus
Oh, that's impressive. Stabbed one poor little Hobbit in the shoulder, didn't even do that job right, and then they were all five run off by Aragorn, alone. Even the Witch-King at the Pellenor only managed to break Éowyn's arm, before getting killed by a woman and a Hobbit, neither of them veteran soldiers.

Apparently you can't read. If you look at your post and then my post, it disproves your theory...

You said "Also, the Ringwraiths' main power was fear, and they were rather helpless off their mounts; they do not see the living world as we do, and would been hard-put to climb into a hotel room".

I followed with "Funny, they attacked Frodo pretty well on Weathertop "off their mounts", not to mention climbing up a hill...
Don't forget the hobbits room was on the ground level..."

I don't see why that's hard to understand. I mean you said they are helpless off their mounts, but yet they could climb up weathertop, sneak past everyone and stab Frodo...

Doesn't seem helpless to me...

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, I was responding more to your saying that they were told that the Hobbits were there, not the notion of them coming through the window. I don't think anyone told them that would be where they were. I think they assumed it out of knowing Hobbit nature.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, I was responding more to your saying that they were told that the Hobbits were there, not the notion of them coming through the window. I don't think anyone told them that would be where they were. I think they assumed it out of knowing Hobbit nature.

But how did they know WHICH room? This I think they were told.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
But how did they know WHICH room? This I think they were told.

Butterrbur refers to that particular room as being Hobbit sized, or something such as that, which tells me that it was a specific style of design suited to their needs, and was not common at that inn, so therefore, would be easy to single out from the rest. Plus the fact that Aragorn took them elsewhere to sleep, tells me that he suspected that might be the first place they would look for them.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Butterrbur refers to that particular room as being Hobbit sized, or something such as that, which tells me that it was a specific style of design suited to their needs, and was not common at that inn, so therefore, would be easy to single out from the rest. Plus the fact that Aragorn took them elsewhere to sleep, tells me that he suspected that might be the first place they would look for them.

Nope - I have understoof that there were MANY rooms like that at the inn for Hobbit guests - it was just that many were filled that night.

...two wings running back on land partly cut out of the lower slopes of the hill, so that the rear of the second floor windows were level with the ground.

..."If you weren't hobbits, I doubt we could house you. But we've got a room or two in the north wing that were made special for hobbits, when this place was built. On the ground floor as they usually prefer; round windows and all as they like."

Now if there was ONLY one room in the Inn that was for hobbits - Butterbur would know that it was only one room. It just seems that every room in the inn is basically taken and they even only have one or two hobbit rooms left. Don't forget there were other hobbits talking, singing and dancing in the Inn with Frodo, Sam and Pippin. If they were staying at the Inn - I assume they were occupying the other hobbit rooms.

So no - I don't think the Black Riders know which room the hobbits are staying in - because there isn't just one of those rooms.

As for Aragorn having him sleep with him - I think that was just a precaution and protection. It would be understandable to suspect that the black riders would attempt to attack the room at night.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Where did you get that they were leaning over an open window ledge?

“When they saw them they were glad they had taken his advice: the windows had been forced open and were swinging, and the curtains were flapping: the beds were tossed about, and the bolsters slashed and flung on the floor: the brown mat was torn to pieces.”

I have always taken this to mean that the intruders entered from outsied the Inn via the ground floor window.

but you must have been really pissed then at how weak jackson made them -

Yes, one of many letdowns for me.

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Apparently you can't read. If you look at your post and then my post, it disproves your theory...

You said "Also, the Ringwraiths' main power was fear, and they were rather helpless off their mounts; they do not see the living world as we do, and would been hard-put to climb into a hotel room".

I followed with "Funny, they attacked Frodo pretty well on Weathertop "off their mounts", not to mention climbing up a hill...
Don't forget the hobbits room was on the ground level..."

I don't see why that's hard to understand. I mean you said they are helpless off their mounts, but yet they could climb up weathertop, sneak past everyone and stab Frodo...

Doesn't seem helpless to me...

I said "rather helpless," a coparative to the power and terror that they could wield when mounted. I can read quite well, thank you.

[Thorin II]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Nope - I have understoof that there were MANY rooms like that at the inn for Hobbit guests - it was just that many were filled that night.



Now if there was ONLY one room in the Inn that was for hobbits - Butterbur would know that it was only one room. It just seems that every room in the inn is basically taken and they even only have one or two hobbit rooms left. Don't forget there were other hobbits talking, singing and dancing in the Inn with Frodo, Sam and Pippin. If they were staying at the Inn - I assume they were occupying the other hobbit rooms.

So no - I don't think the Black Riders know which room the hobbits are staying in - because there isn't just one of those rooms.

As for Aragorn having him sleep with him - I think that was just a precaution and protection. It would be understandable to suspect that the black riders would attempt to attack the room at night.

As I wrote earlier, I suspect the actual dirty work was done by agents of the Ringwraiths, rather than the Ringwraiths themselves. Even if not, it seems likely the agents of the Ringwraiths were the ones to point to which room the hobbits were staying in.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Thorin II
Even if not, it seems likely the agents of the Ringwraiths were the ones to point to which room the hobbits were staying in.

This is what I have always believed - but I believe the Ringwraiths themselves attacked.