The non-existing finger

[Wayfarer]

Re: The palintirs.

They were originally placed in the following locations:

1) Osgiliath
2) Minas Ithil
3) Minas Anor
4) Orthanc
5) Annúminas(Fornost)
6) Amon Sul (Weathertop)
7) The White Towers

The stones at Annuminas, Amon Sul, and the White Towers were taken by Ardevui on his ill-fated voyage, and ended up at the bottom of the sea. The tower that housed the stone in Osgiliath was razed during the kinslaying, leaving only the stones at Minas Ithil, Minas Anorm and Orthanc, whose fates you know of. :P

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Re: The palintirs.

They were originally placed in the following locations:

1) Osgiliath
2) Minas Ithil
3) Minas Anor
4) Orthanc
5) Annúminas(Fornost)
6) Amon Sul (Weathertop)
7) The White Towers

The stones at Annuminas, Amon Sul, and the White Towers were taken by Ardevui on his ill-fated voyage, and ended up at the bottom of the sea. The tower that housed the stone in Osgiliath was razed during the kinslaying, leaving only the stones at Minas Ithil, Minas Anorm and Orthanc, whose fates you know of. :P

I thought one was placed in a tower at the Grey Havens by Elendil and that stone was later taken into the West?

[Wayfarer]

The white towers were west of the shire and east of the grey havens. But that stone was lost to Osse Jone's locker.

[Dúnedain]

I don't think Sauron's finger was ever reformed, because in The Two Towers Gollum makes this statement:

'Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,' said Gollum shuddering.

Now this could have been said in two ways. 1) they were recounting old tales before this, so it could have been Gollum referring to those. 2) Gollum was torchered in Mordor and I believe he even speaks of Sauron being there, which could be why he spoke of only 4 fingers on his hand.

It could go either way. I tried looking for another passage I just read this past week, but I am too lazy to continue looking for it, hehe

[Elf Girl]

Assuming he had other fingers he could wear it on those.

[Twista]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Re: The palintirs.

The tower that housed the stone in Osgiliath was razed during the kinslaying.

But where did the stone go? it must have been the rubble somewhere

[Earniel]

Or fell in the river.

[Twista]

and no picked it out? lol. It must of been worth a furrtune to everyone.

[Earniel]

Well it is the Great River Anduin. I doubt you'd be able to relocate it and dive it up again.

[Twista]

still. get a water creature to get it or something.

[Elf Girl]

And how do you propose to get a fish to bring you up a heavy stone orb that crackles with the power of people seeing out of it? But this is deeply off-topic... a new thread perhaps?

[Thorin II]

Dúnedain - I understand it to be #2; Sauron was never able to reform his missing finger.

[Wayfarer]

Or fell in the river.

It fell in the river. You know, that river. The Anduin. The 'Great River'. Yeah. /That/ one.

Here's a question for you all- I take a ball of glass somewhere between two and three feet in diameter and toss it into the Mississippi, are /you/ going to be able to 'just fish it out'.

Now, if that /still/ seems too easy, /this/ river has nary a single dam on it, so the flow of water is going to be tremendous, enough to wash the palintir out to sea rather quickly, the object you're searching for lies amid countless debris and rubble, it probably can't be located by sight in the murky water and, oh, lest I forget to mention, you're trying to do all this at the single most contested spot in the height of a civil war.

Have fun.

[Elf Girl]

*starts diving for lost PalantÃ*r*

[Twista]

ANYWAYS... back to the topic maybe...

Talking about the ring, where was it i heard that

'if the ring makes you go invisible when you put it on, why doesnt it make the chain go invisible around frodo's neck?' lol

[Wayfarer]

Because the chain is just matter, and the ring didn't work on a purely physical level.

What the ring did, in making a mortal invisible, was push them partially into the spirit or wraith world, so that they couldn't be seen but could still interact. This is also why, for example, Frodo's vision was dark and blurred while he wore the ring.

[ethuiliel]

I haven't read everything here, so I may be repeating something, but this is how I imagined Sauron when I thought about it: Someone with a human-like body (Gollum said something about him having 9 fingers, I think) but who had a very unusual eye. There has to be something about the eye, because it is mentioned several times, and even seen in Galadriel's mirror.

[Attalus]

I have always taken it that Sauron had furnished Barad-dûr with some sort of magical device akin to seat on the Hill of Seeing, Amon Hen, that he used to survey Middle-earth. Obviously he had physical eyes that he formed with his new body, but he lost the ability to look any way he wanted with the downfall of Númenór, whether he had the Ring or not. Oh, and I think the reason so many people think that the Lidless Eye, which I take to be a metaphor for eternal vigilance, not deformity, was red, is that the Orcs of Barad-dûr wore that symbol in red.

[ethuiliel]

Oh, and I think the reason so many people think that the Lidless Eye, which I take to be a metaphor for eternal vigilance, not deformity, was red, is that the Orcs of Barad-dûr wore that symbol in red.

Interesting. That makes sense, and it makes it a little easier to understand what the eye it, and why people picture it to be red.

[Ulmo]

The red also could've come from this, when Denethor shows his palantir to Gandalf.

And as he held it up, it seemed to those that looked on that the globe began to glow with an inner flame, so that the lean face of the Lord was lit as with a red fire, and it seemed cut out of hard stone, sharp with black shadows, noble, proud, and terrible. His eyes glittered.

Wayfarer is incorrect in one aspect of his statements about the palantiri. Arvedui lost only two of the stones - those originally set at Annúminas and Amon Sûl, as told by the note for 1975 TA in the appendices:

Arvedui drowned in the Bay of Forochel. The palantÃ*ri of Annúminas and Amon Sûl are lost.

The stone of Amon Sûl was moved to Fornost with the other stone when that outpost was destroyed by the Witch-King.

As stated, the Ithil Stone was taken by Sauron in taking over that tower and lost in the destruction of Barad-dur; the stones at Orthanc and Minas Tirith were left in the ownership of Arvedui's heir, Aragorn; and the stone at Osgiliath was lost.

The seventh stone whose fate has not been correctly stated here was Elendil's Stone of Elostirion, the tallest of the towers of Emyn Beraid that Gil-galad built for Elendil (referred to as The White Towers above). This was a special stone, for it only looked West to the Sea and could not be used for communication the way the other stones were. Elendil used it to look West over the Sea:

and thence he would gaze out over the sundering seas, when the yearning of exile was upon him; and it is believed that thus he would at whiles see far away even the Tower of Avallónë upon Eressëa, where the Masterstone abode, and yet abides.

What happened to this stone? The Encyclopedia of Arda says that it left Middle-earth with Gandalf and company, though I've not been able to find this reference. Should I find it (or any other clues to its fate), I'll post it here later. Cirdan and the Elves of Lindon certainly kept watch over it - it either left Middle-earth with them (if not Gandalf) or was returned to the King of Arnor.

Some posts make it sound questionable that Sauron had a physical figure still. He did, as Tolkien states in Letter 246:

In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn. In the contest with the PalantÃ*r Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance.

In "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" in The Silmarillion, Gandalf also shows that Sauron had a body once again in his comment to Elrond upon return from Dol Guldur:

'True, alas, is our guess. This is not one of the Úlairi, as many have long supposed. It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering again all the Rings to his hand; and he seeks ever for news of the One, and of the Heirs of Isildur, if they live still on earth.'