ADD & ADHD in kids- bad parenting?

[Gulio, Strength of Many]

I've been thinking about this topic quite a bit lately, most likely because of my friend. He's got ADHD, according to the doctors or whoever diagnoses that, and was taking pills. He loathes the pills, because he's not himself. The wierd thing about it was, the school was making him take the pill, not his parents. He got a detention once because he wouldn't take his pill. He would act like he was taking it, and then throw it down the toilet.

Now, he takes a different type of medication, and his dad gives it to him. Once, he had taken it just before coming over to my house. He was energetic and normal when he got here, but I could see him winding down rapidly. In about an hour, he was like a zombie.

I feel really bad for people who have to take pills to keep their energy levels down, so whoever's in charge doesn't have to deal with them. I think the main reason so many people are diagnosed with ADD or ADHD is because lots of parents don't know how, or don't want to, teach their kids to have self-control. I know that my veiw isn't popular, and I'll probably get in trouble for saying this, but it is my belief that every person has the ability to control their actions.

People with ADD or ADHD should be taught to think about what they're doing, and how to not act on random compulsions. They should be able to make decisions for themselves, without getting drugged up.

[brownjenkins]

i agree completely gulio... while i would say that there are some who do need drug treatment (or at least it's the best thing we know of at the moment), i think it is a vast minority... one of my sidelines is children's theatre (3rd-5th grade) and i know how difficult managing groups of children can be, but that is no excuse for sedating the troublemakers

a major part of the problem is all the incentives drug companies give doctors and hospitals to prescribe their new medicines (because these are the ones they profit from the most)... often pushing the more well-known generics out of the picture, even though they are much better understood, in terms of both dosage and side-effects

i think the scientologists are a bit too far on the reactionary side... but considering the strength of drug companies, they are a necessary counterpoint, along with other alternative medicines and treatments

[samwiselvr2008]

My thing is that I don't see friends or kids from parents that stay at home with they're kids, and/or spend a lot of time and really love there kids having these problems as much as other kids who's parents don't spend much time with there kids, and don't seem to really love (I know they love them, but maybe they just don't show it as much or something, sorry if this makes anyone here mad at me) or disiplin them have the problems. The teens and kids with problems usually are also the ones who's parents don't really cear if they get in trouble at school or whatever, they just dont' really cear enoph to dicipline them themselves, weather that's phisically (spankings) or in another way (sent to your room, grounded, ect.). Where as, even if some of the kids with the parents that spend more time ect. with them are really high energy level and hyper, then at least there parents have taught them to controle it, to a point where they don't need medication to controle there bodys, because they can do it by themselves. Some of these people might have been diagnosed with ADD or ADHD if they were born to different parents, and yet had just as much energy. other kids that do have ADD and ADHD, if they were born to different parents, then they probally wouldn't be as bad off. Some kids that I know have to take tons of medicine, and they still arn't diciplined, some of the medicine is for reasons other then ADD and ADHD, but there lives are still completely ran by the medicine that they take. If they had been born into a differant family one of the first ones that I mentioned, then they would have been on less medicine, they neaded more indavigual attention then they were getting. Over the course of a week, that they were at camp with me and some others being the camp counsalers and giving them specifically indavigual attention and love, they were improving in there behavoure. (this was two kids diagnosed with ADHD)

[Elvengirl]

IR- I believe in natural remedies for a physical illness. Drugs do not handle the real problem, they cover it up. I have pesonally known people who were on medication and their lives became dependant upon them. There were side effects for one pill so another pll was needed for the side affects and so on. It practically destroyed their bodies. I'm not saying that taking a Tylenol or other pain killer is going to destroy your life, but it is harmful to a certain degree. It is a drug.

Now for mental medication. I believe the drugs have negative affects upon the body.


Gulio, I agree completely. You actually wrote almost the exact same things that were in my posts that were deleted. I find it wrong that a school is forcing the children to take medication. I'm glad to hear that your friend is able to decide for himself whether he want s to take the pill. CCHR is actually trying to stop that. The schools should not be ones to give the kids drugs.

Sminty- Actually, CCHR is trying to stop the mental drugs in order to keep this civilization from being drugged up. They want people to think for themselves, to be sane and rational to stop what is happening to people like Gulio's friend, where his parents aren't even the ones wanting him to take a drug. I gave you the link so that if you were intersted you might find out some more information. Has your dad done anything in the Church? Sometimes false data is spread around and I wouldn't want peolpe to make decisions without knowing the actual truth.

Brownjenkins- I think the reason people resort to drug treatment is because they don't know of anything better or what you said, it the best thing peolpe know of at this time. But there are better ways of handling these "mental disorders" with out using drugs and it is successful.

[Elvengirl]

I just found this book that might be helpful for you.

Mad in America by Robert Whitaker.

It has won several awards including the George Polk Award and National Association of Science Writer's award

This is a review of one whom has read the book.

"This book is one of the most thouroughly researched, truthful and educational portrayals of psychiatry that I have ever read in my 25 years of working to clean up the field of mental health. Easy to read, it is vital for those seeking to understand exactly how psychiatry has falsified studies, lied to governments and turned society into the problem-ridden, drug culture that it has become today." JE

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Elvengirl
There are other better alternatives to taking drugs and going to psychiatrists. Sorry IR but they are bad. I'm not saying peolpe need to "snap out of it" but DO NOT take a drug for it. That is not the correct handling, they are more harmful than helpful.

I think you really need to do some reserach on how the brain works. The brain is chemicals and everything else that interact with things. It is the most complicated of all the organs in our body. Do you think people should just "deal" with alzheimers and stuff? To me alzheimers is no different than someone having ADD/ADHD - it's justa different problem. Somethings need to be corrected by adjusting the chemicals in the brain - this also goes for depression.

[azalea]

See, that's the thing, though -- you have to understand that just because a disorder manifests itself behaviorly and is centered in the brain, that doesn't mean it isn't a PHYSICAL disorder -- it is. The brain is just as mucha part of the body as anything, and it stands to reason that if there is a disorder there, it's just as valid to take medication for it as if one were taking medication for Parkinson's or something like that. Unlike a disorder that affects, say, the legs, such as a birth defect, that is treated with physical therapy, other disorders require medicine to treat and lessen the symptoms of the disorder. That's how it is with ADD. The bad thing is that it IS over-diagnosed, and many underqualified doctors prescribe medication without doing a thorough diagnosis. There should be extensive checklists and anecdotal records from both parents and teachers, and even then the doctor should be able to first recommend behavior modifications that could help tremedously. Many times the child probably doesn't have ADHD, but the doctor just doesn't feel comfortable to tell the parents they just need to learn how to parent more effectively.
Honestly, ADHD is such an obvious disorder that if it hasn't been diagnosed by the time the child is in 5th grade, it's really unlikely that it is ADHD. If it becomes more evident after that, it may actually be a learning disability (or as we like to say, a learning difference), which is not helped by medication (at least not yet), but rather requires modifications at school, such as allowing more time for test taking, that kind of thing. Similar modifications are used for kids w/ ADD, but they are very different problems, although they may share similar symptoms.
You don't say what exactly your symptoms are, Sminty, but it sounds like this is something that has been affecting your life for a long time, and if the medicine is helping, as long as the success of the treatment outweighs any negative side effects, then certainly it is the right thing to do.
The only caution I'd give in general regarding the use of medication is that it will not cure the disorder, but will allow success in areas that have previously been difficult for the individual, thereby allowing him or her to learn techniques to deal with the disorder, eventually leading to being able to come off of the medication. This is the advantage of having behavioral symptoms rather than a "physical" disability -- we can hopefully learn to control behavior, whereas we have less control over whether our bodies work if something is wrong with it.
It's like a person who's been in a car accident and can't walk, and the doctors say "you'll never be able to walk again," but the person, with intensive physical therapy is able to walk again, with difficulty. A person w/ ADHD might be told "you'll never be able to be successful," but then is treated with a combination of medication and behavior modification, and eventually learns how to adjust and is able to be successful, with difficulty. It isn't easy, but the person CAN learn to be successful in situations in which their disability hinders them.

(Edit -- I was responding to Elvengirl's post, not yours, JD -- you beat me to the post. But what you said is the same thing I was trying to say, just much more succinctly than I )

[Valandil]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I think you really need to do some reserach on how the brain works. The brain is chemicals and everything else that interact with things. It is the most complicated of all the organs in our body. Do you think people should just "deal" with alzheimers and stuff? To me alzheimers is no different than someone having ADD/ADHD - it's justa different problem. Somethings need to be corrected by adjusting the chemicals in the brain - this also goes for depression.

JD, I don't totally agree with what Elvengirl is saying on this, but one valid part of what she says is that BECAUSE the brain is our most complicated organ, we should be very judicious (she would say something even stronger) in administering drugs that affect it. We may indeed treat the symptoms of a particular problem which has been diagnosed... but how do we determine whether that treatment does harm in some other way? It may be hard to know - and may not surface for many years.

I don't know enough about this to comment further, except that personally, I like a 'less is more' approach to these things. Also, again note that I don't agree with that point of view (no drugs) but was just trying to clarify the point of view (did I do so, Elvengirl?). I sure don't know how far science has advanced on this - how sophisticated we are about potential side effects and long-term effects - and what alternatives can be done to limit those.

[Valandil]

BTW... Azalea's post just brought something to mind (re: ADHD being over-diagnosed). We have a VERY rambunctious second child - a boy, age 3 right now. Maybe I'm wrong, but personally, I don't think he had any kind of disorder. I think he just has a strong will, likes to push the limits, is very active and physical (symptoms of little boyhood! ). One of OUR big concerns, as parents, is that a teacher may think he's just too out-of-control and that it would be much easier to deal with him if he was medicated. Unfortunately, I think that happens a lot.

On the other hand, I do believe that these conditions exist. Maybe my son even has one (I guess I'm more fearful of a misdiagnosis than an accurate diagnosis of ADHD). Those who have them should not feel like outcasts - or feel like they can't get help when it's available. I just hope the doctors involved are being very judicious about treatments.

[jerseydevil]

Elvengirl - what about ephedra? it was just banned from use because of numerous problems.

Government announces ban on ephedra

...Ephedra is an herbal supplement that is found in various over-the-counter products designed to help people lose weight or increase their energy, and has long been the subject of criticism.

In February, a medical examiner said an ephedra supplement was linked to the death of Baltimore Orioles pitcher Steve Bechler.

A study commissioned by the National Institutes of Health also called into safety the use of ephedra, saying it was associated with higher risks of heart palpitations, tremors and insomnia.

Industry groups say ephedra is safe when used as directed, and between 12 and 17 million Americans use it each year. The Ephedra Education Council, which is funded by manufacturers and distributors, has supported tougher labeling requirements but opposes a federal ban.

Earlier this year, the EEC told the FDA in a statement that under the FDA's current definition, "There is no question that ephedra supplements that meet current industry standards are safe and provide significant public health benefits for consumers who need to lose weight."

Other studies over the past year have also suggested links to health problems.

The Annals of Internal Medicine reported that, although products with ephedra make up less than 1 percent of dietary supplement sales, it has accounted for 64 percent of the serious side effects that have been reported to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in association with dietary supplements.

A second study published in the journal Neurology found that the rate of strokes among ephedra users was higher than in nonusers. The supplement users in the study took more than 32 milligrams a day; some ephedra labels recommend almost 100 milligrams daily.

Illinois and New York already have banned the sale of products containing ephedra, and Florida banned ephedra sales to minors in May.

[azalea]

I forgot to add one more thing, that it was mentioned that why should children who are just naturally more active and happy be medicated into zombies. Well, there's where the danger of overdiagnosis comes in -- because of the nature of the symptoms, it is more difficult to diagnose, but not impossible. One main difference is that indeed, children with untreated ADHD are NOT happy. They have a problem, and they are suffering the most from it. They are too young to understand what is wrong, and since they've never experienced life any other way, they can't help themselves. That's why they should be treated SOMEHOW so that they can succeed. No one would dream of telling a child with Spina Bifida or Cerebral Palsy to go without treatment to the extent that it is possible, but people are so willing to tell kids with ADHD not to take medication. This is why overdiagnosis is dangerous, because it stigmatizes the disorder and the kids who really do have it are in danger of not being treated because of it. Parents start to listen to other voices saying, "no don't medicate" and then the kid isn't helped. I mean, what's worse, taking the medication, or failing in school and being unable to maintain healthy social relationships for the rest of his life because the parent listened to people who said the disorder doesn't exist, or the medication is harmful (which is the case with any medication taken the wrong way)?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Valandil
JD, I don't totally agree with what Elvengirl is saying on this, but one valid part of what she says is that BECAUSE the brain is our most complicated organ, we should be very judicious (she would say something even stronger) in administering drugs that affect it. We may indeed treat the symptoms of a particular problem which has been diagnosed... but how do we determine whether that treatment does harm in some other way? It may be hard to know - and may not surface for many years.

I worked on a Clinical Trial application for Eli Lilly - I know how hard it is for drugs to get approved. True - drugs just shouldn't be given to everyone - but it is stupid to say NO ONE should be taking them. If that's the case - then let's not give people heart medication, or novicaine when they get their teeth filled. Natural remedies are weak and manufactured drugs are "natural", but stronger - they just have the active ingredients and are used to target the problem. They don't create the chemicals that go into manufactured drugs - they all come from nature.

[azalea]

Originally posted by Valandil
BTW... Azalea's post just brought something to mind (re: ADHD being over-diagnosed). We have a VERY rambunctious second child - a boy, age 3 right now. Maybe I'm wrong, but personally, I don't think he had any kind of disorder. I think he just has a strong will, likes to push the limits, is very active and physical (symptoms of little boyhood! ). One of OUR big concerns, as parents, is that a teacher may think he's just too out-of-control and that it would be much easier to deal with him if he was medicated. Unfortunately, I think that happens a lot.

On the other hand, I do believe that these conditions exist. Maybe my son even has one (I guess I'm more fearful of a misdiagnosis than an accurate diagnosis of ADHD). Those who have them should not feel like outcasts - or feel like they can't get help when it's available. I just hope the doctors involved are being very judicious about treatments.

Plus -- he's a three year old boy -- isn't that the definition of "rambunctious?" And of course all kids are different, so even if you have an older son who wasn't, it may jsut be different personalities. If he is six and still acting like he's three, that's when a parent needs to worry. And really then only if it affects school and social performance.

[Valandil]

JD - good point about all the ingredients coming from nature (doesn't everything! )... I try not to label anything 'stupid' though.

Azalea - thanks for that! Very helpful tip for future reference! *a little afraid that a rambuctious 6-year-old can do much more damage than a rambunctious 3-year-old* Do you have a professional background in this area?

Sminty - hang in there! When you're on your medication do things go better with your family?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Valandil
JD - good point about all the ingredients coming from nature (doesn't everything! )... I try not to label anything 'stupid' though.

Well - I won the most opiniated award and that's my opinion.

[azalea]

Originally posted by Valandil


Azalea - thanks for that! Very helpful tip for future reference! *a little afraid that a rambuctious 6-year-old can do much more damage than a rambunctious 3-year-old* Do you have a professional background in this area?

I was a teacher before I started being a "domestic engineer," and for two years I taught what in GA is called a "self-contained behavior disorders" class, which means some of the kids were one step away from going to what was called the "psycho-ed center." Not all were that serious, though. I had students with a wide variety of disorders, several with severe ADHD. Before that I had been a temporary assistant teacher in a self-contained b.d. room, as well as in a resource class (which is a step up from a self contained room in terms of mainstreaming, and includes both b.d. and learning disabled kids).

[Daisy Baggins]

Several recent studies have shown that the long term use of ritalin may change the brain's chemistry.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3660424/

And years ago studies have shown that there are no long term advantages to taking ritalin. The child may act calmer and seem to learn more, but he of she will not do better academically or socially in the long term.

Althought there is a small percentage of children who have serious problems, I think that far too many have all kinds of labels stuck on them as they enter kindergarten.

I think this happens for two reason:

1) The schools are expected to do everything and be everything. They simply don't have the time or the resources for the child who has problems.

2) Both parents are expected to work, and they don't have time for the child who has problems.

For this reason, they are looking for an instant solution to a long-term problem-some kind of instant cure.

Unfortunately, there are none.

[samwiselvr2008]

Originally posted by Daisy Baggins
Several recent studies have shown that the long term use of ritalin may change the brain's chemistry.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3660424/

And years ago studies have shown that there are no long term advantages to taking ritalin. The child may act calmer and seem to learn more, but he of she will not do better academically or socially in the long term.

Althought there is a small percentage of children who have serious problems, I think that far too many have all kinds of labels stuck on them as they enter kindergarten.

I think this happens for two reason:

1) The schools are expected to do everything and be everything. They simply don't have the time or the resources for the child who has problems.

2) Both parents are expected to work, and they don't have time for the child who has problems.

For this reason, they are looking for an instant solution to a long-term problem-some kind of instant cure.

Unfortunately, there are none.

I agree, the best cure is parents, love and attention, and in a loveing and understanding way, punishing and showing the right way to act. Pills may change a child's chemestry, but in the long run, what they need is not a pill.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by samwiselvr2008
I agree, the best cure is parents, love and attention, and in a loveing and understanding way, punishing and showing the right way to act. Pills may change a child's chemestry, but in the long run, what they need is not a pill.

What about when it's a chemical inbalance? What about when it IS a problem with the brain?

[samwiselvr2008]

Then maybe so, JD, I'm not an expert at this but I just think that more parenting is needed in lots of cases. maybe some people trully do need pills, but they also need parenting more then the medican. And it needs to be something that doctors are 100% sertain about before they are given a subscrption.