Why wasnt the ring distroyed @ end of 2nd age

[Bacchus]

Isildur had four sons. Three of them were adults who fought in the Last Alliance and died at the Gladden Fields (where the Ring was lost in TA 2). His fourth son, Valandil, was at Rivendell and became King of Arnor

[Cirdan]

Well, we were all ragged out from a long seige and really just wanted a shower. Islidur promised we'd come back in the morning but we got distracted and sort of forgot. Then later he said he must have left it in his other hauberk. We went back later and I swear he must have switched the ring or something becuase he threw something in but did it real fast so we couldn't see; By that time it was getting late and we were all ready to go home.

[Thorin II]

I doubt Elrond and Cirdan realized the full extent of the danger in failing to destroy the Ring. Surely, they knew it was evil, but I don't think anyone realized Sauron would last as long as the Ring was around. In the Hobbit, the White Council removed the Necromancer from Mirkwood without realizing it was Sauron until afterwords. My guess is that they tried to convince Isildur to destroy the ring because they knew it would continue to bring bad things about. They would've done more (including an attack, perhaps) if they'd known Sauron would return.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Bacchus
Isildur had four sons. Three of them were adults who fought in the Last Alliance and died at the Gladden Fields (where the Ring was lost in TA 2). His fourth son, Valandil, was at Rivendell and became King of Arnor

THANK you! But don't forget to mention that this also made me 'High King of all the Dunedain in Middle Earth'... Gondor was technically under my overlordship!

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Thorin II
I doubt Elrond and Cirdan realized the full extent of the danger in failing to destroy the Ring. Surely, they knew it was evil, but I don't think anyone realized Sauron would last as long as the Ring was around. In the Hobbit, the White Council removed the Necromancer from Mirkwood without realizing it was Sauron until afterwords. My guess is that they tried to convince Isildur to destroy the ring because they knew it would continue to bring bad things about. They would've done more (including an attack, perhaps) if they'd known Sauron would return.

I disagree. Surely Elrond and Cirdan would know of the power of the Ring and that it needed to be destroyed. Think about it, Elrond was the keeper of one of the Elven rings of power, and the master of lore. If they didn't think it was that big of a deal, then they wouldn't have told him to cast it into the fire. The reason, in my opinion, that they didn't attack him is because they couldn't force him to do as they wished. Besides, would you attack a great friend of yours that has fought along side you for almost 10 years straight of battle? In addition, if they attacked him, would they be able to part with the ring as well? This is what they knew, they knew it would have to be a choice of free will to do so...

[Thorin II]

I agree with your reasoning on why Elrond and Cirdan would hesitate to attack Isildur, but I disagree that they realized Sauron could not be destroyed while the Ring existed. They were loremasters and they had their own rings of power, but that wouldn't mean they would know everything about the One Ring. The only bearers of rings of power that had died the original Dwarf lords. At least some of those rings still existed (in Sauron's possession), but the Dwarf lords were gone. I find it entirely plausible that Elrond and Cirdan were uncertain as to whether Sauron could ever return. If they knew otherwise, I don't think they would've allowed the One Ring to disappear from history they way it did. Even if they wouldn't take it from Isildur, they would've kept a closer eye on it if they knew it absolutely had to be destroyed. After all, for almost an Age, it sat in the same river bed where Isildur was killed. If the wise had known the full ramifications of the Ring surviving, I think someone would've found it shortly after Isildur died. I don't think there's any evidence to suggest they did much searching right after the Ring was lost.

[brownjenkins]

sauron's body was destroyed in the downfall of numenor, yet he was able to recorporate himself due to the ring... if it can be assumed that elrond and cirdan knew this, then they should have expected it to happen again

one thing, somewhat off-topic that always bothered me about this... why was sauron able to comeback so quickly after the numenor death (less than 100 years), yet it took so much longer the second time? i'd have to assume that he actually was back much much earlier in the third age, but just didn't bother to show himself for quite some time

[Thorin II]

brownjenkins - You make a good point about Sauron returning at the end of the Second Age. I hadn't thought about that.

[Bacchus]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
sauron's body was destroyed in the downfall of numenor, yet he was able to recorporate himself due to the ring... if it can be assumed that elrond and cirdan knew this, then they should have expected it to happen again

one thing, somewhat off-topic that always bothered me about this... why was sauron able to comeback so quickly after the numenor death (less than 100 years), yet it took so much longer the second time? i'd have to assume that he actually was back much much earlier in the third age, but just didn't bother to show himself for quite some time

The simple answer to this lies in the fact that Sauron had possession of the Ring following the Downfall. Add to this the speculation that reembodiment became harder with repetition, and I don't see a problem with the longer timespan the second time around.

[Earniel]

In 20/20 hindsight it's easy to say Cirdan and Elrond should have made Isildur destroy the Ring. I think that in the situation after the battle, the re-emergence of Sauron was deemed unlikely due to the fact that he no longer possessed the Ring.

I don't think anyone at that time really understood the true, corruptable nature of the One Ring and the influence it had on its bearer.

And where could the thing have been more safe than in the hands of one of Sauron's greatest enemies, Elendil's son?

I remember there was a thread a while ago about what you would have done if you were Cirdan or Elrond at the time Isildur claimed the Ring but I'm too lazy to search it.

[brownjenkins]

good point Bacchus... do you remember if it was ever stated if sauron left the ring at barad-dur or not? i know i've seen something on this, but don't remember the source

[Valandil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
good point Bacchus... do you remember if it was ever stated if sauron left the ring at barad-dur or not? i know i've seen something on this, but don't remember the source

I think I remember that his disembodied spirit returned to Barad-dur and took up the Ring. If he had it on him when Numenor was destroyed... I doubt his disembodied spirit could have brought it up from the depths. So I suspect he left it in the tower when he went out to 'humble himself' before Ar-Pharazon. I'll have to check where we get that version of the account - whether 'Akallabeth' in 'Silmarillion' - or if it's one of the stories in UT.

[azalea]

Hmm, I think there's a Letter that discusses the controversy regarding how the disembodied spirit could carry the Ring back, that states something along the lines of "considering that it was the object into which he had poured so much of his power, it is therefore not unreasonable to think that he could have carried it back" -- something like that.

[Bacchus]

Yep, Azalea, that's my recollection as well.

The problem is that the different stories are a bit ambiguously worded. Akallabeth says of Sauron "...his spirit arose...and came back...to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-Dur...."

Of The Rings of Power ironically doesn't directly mention the Ring in it's equivalent passage, "But his spirit arose and fled back on a dark wind to Middle Earth, seeking a home. There he found that the power of Gil-Galad had grown great.

These passages seem to imply that the Ring did not go to Numenor. But look at this passage from Letter 211:

Sauron's personal 'surrender' was voluntary and cunning: he got free transport to Numenor! He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Numenoreans. (I do not think Ar-Pharazon knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret, as long as they could. In any case Ar Pharazon was not in communication with them....)

Later in the same letter

Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his powr of dominating minds now largely depended

...

Sauron was of course 'confounded' by the disaster, and diminished (having expended enormous energy in the corruption of Numenor). He needed time for his own bodily rehabilitation, and for gaining control over his former subjects. He was attacked by Elendil and Gil galad before his new dominion was fully established

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
I disagree. Surely Elrond and Cirdan would know of the power of the Ring and that it needed to be destroyed. Think about it, Elrond was the keeper of one of the Elven rings of power, and the master of lore. If they didn't think it was that big of a deal, then they wouldn't have told him to cast it into the fire. The reason, in my opinion, that they didn't attack him is because they couldn't force him to do as they wished. Besides, would you attack a great friend of yours that has fought along side you for almost 10 years straight of battle? In addition, if they attacked him, would they be able to part with the ring as well? This is what they knew, they knew it would have to be a choice of free will to do so...

It is unknown when Elrond took Vilya from Gil-Galad. It seems reasonable to me that he might have taken it from Gil-Galad's body after he was killed by Sauron, so he would have had little experience with being a Ringbearer. CÃ*rdan did, but he wasn't into it all that much, since he actually gave his Ring to Gandalf. I definitely agree that it would have been an incredibly evil thing for Elrond and CÃ*rdan to do, to attack a comrade-in-arms who was also the the new King. It would not be at all in their characters, as I read them. No, I suspect that they planned to wait and argue Isildur out of it when he got older and wiser, but he was killed too soon.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Attalus
It is unknown when Elrond took Vilya from Gil-Galad. It seems reasonable to me that he might have taken it from Gil-Galad's body after he was killed by Sauron, so he would have had little experience with being a Ringbearer. CÃ*rdan did, but he wasn't into it all that much, since he actually gave his Ring to Gandalf. I definitely agree that it would have been an incredibly evil thing for Elrond and CÃ*rdan to do, to attack a comrade-in-arms who was also the the new King. It would not be at all in their characters, as I read them. No, I suspect that they planned to wait and argue Isildur out of it when he got older and wiser, but he was killed too soon.

Actually Gil-galad passed it to Elrond at the time of the founding of Rivendell, which was in the 2nd age 1697...

And Gandalf wasn't in Middle Earth for another 1000 years after this time, so Cirdan still had his ring...

[Attalus]

All right, but the Elven rings weren't being used because of the still-active One Ring, which would have controlled, or at least made their thoughts available to Sauron. So neither could have been an experienced Ringbearer.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Actually Gil-galad passed it to Elrond at the time of the founding of Rivendell, which was in the 2nd age 1697...

And Gandalf wasn't in Middle Earth for another 1000 years after this time, so Cirdan still had his ring...

Dunedain, I think what Attalus was saying is that because Cirdan later gave his ring to Gandalf, it may indicate that he wasn't ever especially excited about being a ringbearer.

I vaguely remember that about when Elrond got his ring... when did Cirdan get his? Is it possible that Gil-galad still had possession (even if it was left behind at Lindon) and that Cirdan took charge of it when he went back home?

I'm trying to remember the paths the Elven rings took after Celebrimbor became aware that Sauron had made the One Ring... is it outlined in "Celeborn and Galadriel" in UT? If I recall, it seems like Celebrimbor took them to Galadriel in Lorien... but Tolkien later decided that Galadriel and Celeborn were not ruling in Lorien until much, much later (say about 3700 years +/-) and I'm not sure if he ever got around to adjusting this part of the story to fit. What was the path each of the three took to its eventual keeper... does anyone remember offhand?