France wants to prevent students from wearing religious garb...

[Radagast]

Europe and France tend to dislike with people openly wearing religious garb. I would say that this is especially true in Britain, we look askance and feel rather embarassed at such extreme displays of religion. I wouldn't say at all that this attitude is a problem. Europe is not loud, brash, in-your-face America, nor is she the uncivilised, extreme Middle East. She is genteel, civilsied Europe which is rather embarassed at such extremism.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Radagast
Europe and France tend to dislike with people openly wearing religious garb. I would say that this is especially true in Britain, we look askance and feel rather embarassed at such extreme displays of religion. I wouldn't say at all that this attitude is a problem. Europe is not loud, brash, in-your-face America, nor is she the uncivilised, extreme Middle East. She is genteel, civilsied Europe which is rather embarassed at such extremism.

Oh - so because we allow people to practice what they wish and they enjoy the FREEDOM to wear headscarves and such in classes we are brash, loud and in-your-face America? I'm sorry - I have been to England, and your general not in your face - you're just arrogant. As demonstrated by your comments regarding "uncivilised Middle East" Not to mention your "genteel, civilized European statement".

I would rather live in a country that is WELCOMING of foreigners and other nationalities and people and religions than the closed off society I experienced there and what I see on French news.

[Grey_Wolf]

In a utopian world where everyone is equal and wears the same clothes everything would perfect, wouldn't it? And no religion permitted (it being the opium for the masses (this being the only sane thing Stalin ever uttered)).

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Grey_Wolf
In a utopian world where everyone is equal and wears the same clothes everything would perfect, wouldn't it? And no religion permitted (it being the opium for the masses (this being the only sane thing Stalin ever uttered)).

Well I would think it would be very boring if everyone was the same, and there was no religioon and everyone wore the same clothes. It's one of the reasons I hated the midwest - i felt it was too white and too Christian - especially Seymour Indiana. I missed the arabs, and the hindus and the jews and the muslims, I missed the headscarves and the yarmulkas and the mosques and temples, and cathedrals. I missed going to a play and see a sea of different ethnic groups all get along together. I really do wish I had taken a picture of the audience at the Princeton Shakespeare in the Woods during this summer. Then people would see REAL America and understand what it is truly like.

I like differences and the world would be VERY boring if everyone was the same.

[brownjenkins]

in a utopian world no one would need clothes

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Radagast
Europe and France tend to dislike with people openly wearing religious garb. I would say that this is especially true in Britain, we look askance and feel rather embarassed at such extreme displays of religion. I wouldn't say at all that this attitude is a problem. Europe is not loud, brash, in-your-face America, nor is she the uncivilised, extreme Middle East. She is genteel, civilsied Europe which is rather embarassed at such extremism.

Uncivilized? I resent that!
Because we're in a war we're uncivilized?
How can you know how do all of us behave, huh? That's a silly generalization.

I wonder how would the minorities in France will react. The franch probably did want to calm the area, but by restricting those items to be brought to school, they would only make it worse.

[Radagast]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Oh - so because we allow people to practice what they wish and they enjoy the FREEDOM to wear headscarves and such in classes we are brash, loud and in-your-face America? I'm sorry - I have been to England, and your general not in your face - you're just arrogant. As demonstrated by your comments regarding "uncivilised Middle East" Not to mention your "genteel, civilized European statement".

I would rather live in a country that is WELCOMING of foreigners and other nationalities and people and religions than the closed off society I experienced there and what I see on French news.

No, I didn't say that. My loud, brash comment was my observation of American society. Unqestionably, Americans are more uninhibited, louder and even in things such as Las Vegas. No other nation in the world would dream of having such huge, neon signs, of building a huge, golden lion or rollercoasters in a casino. It's things like that that make America in-your-face, whereas England tends to be quieter, and an Englishman, generally, more reserved.

And I must say it is very hypocritical of you, jerseydevil, oh-defender-of-American-ideals, to call me arrogant!

[Earniel]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Fair enough; it was a bit of a generalisation. What do you think about racism in France then?

Difficult to say, I have little or no experience with it so I'm not going to make a judgement about something I know so little about.

I agree with you that the religions that have more visible signs and traditions are hit the hardest by this. I didn't consider it up to now. The fairness of the rule is perhaps a little hard to find.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
If people here were able to see some of the things I have seen on French news, they would see that our problems pale in comparison. Sometimes you might get slashing of tires, or graffiti, but hardly ever as brutal and everyday like it is there.

Have I told you before not to believe everything you see on TV?

Generally (it may surprise you) people get along here as well. It's true that Europeans on the whole keep a little more to themselves than others but that doesn't mean we're just a xenophobic lot.

Furthermore this thread is not to decend into the spiral of bashing. This thread is about the French decision to ban all visible signs of religion. I know you people can debate peacefully and with respect to one another and you better start proving it. So no flames and no personal attacks anymore or this thread gets closed. Is it that hard to stay civil?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Radagast
No, I didn't say that. My loud, brash comment was my observation of American society. Unqestionably, Americans are more uninhibited, louder and even in things such as Las Vegas. No other nation in the world would dream of having such huge, neon signs, of building a huge, golden lion or rollercoasters in a casino. It's things like that that make America in-your-face, whereas England tends to be quieter, and an Englishman, generally, more reserved.

And I must say it is very hypocritical of you, jerseydevil, oh-defender-of-American-ideals, to call me arrogant!

No it's not - because I can defend American-ideals from the constant bashing - that doesn't mean that I don't accept others culture or put them down. I actually like England and Europe - I just don't like the constant anti-American crap from them.

I have never called a country unciviliced like you did - which is arrogant. As for the "in-your-face" comment - that in Europe is generally used as a way to stick up your noses at us and have the typical "we're more cultured then you" attitude. I've seen it for myself. I'm wondering if you have ever actually BEEN to America.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Have I told you before not to believe everything you see on TV?

I don't beleive everything I see on TV.

I have gotten this impression from BEING in England from French TV and various European news websites. You are telling me EVERYONE is wrong? I'm not even going by OUR news media and whats on here - I'm looking at the source.

Generally (it may surprise you) people get along here as well. It's true that Europeans on the whole keep a little more to themselves than others but that doesn't mean we're just a xenophobic lot.

Well it seems much more closed off - especially when a WHITE african was interviewed on French TV and was saying how hard it is to be accept, how they expect her conform to French culture - even though she spoke french fluently.

Furthermore this thread is not to decend into the spiral of bashing. This thread is about the French decision to ban all visible signs of religion. I know you people can debate peacefully and with respect to one another and you better start proving it. So no flames and no personal attacks anymore or this thread gets closed. Is it that hard to stay civil?

Well i was not flaming nor bashing. I am stating observations. I have BEEN to Europe, as have MANY people I know - including my brother, and my father used to fly over their once, twice a month. I'm speaking from experience on how it's like. It seems to be very closed off to outsiders and far less welcoming than here. Sorry if you take offense - but I don't think you have been to the US - and you may think that it is very open by your standards, but it's not by American standards. The whole French religious thing demonstrates this very well.

Eärniel - How many Europeans have experience with America on a personal level by coming to America? How many Europeans only us us through YOUR media and our movies and TV shows? I have feeling and I know for a fact from talking to Europeans - that even one's who like the US, have a lot of misperceptions about things here, because they have never been here.

[Radagast]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I don't beleive everything I see on TV.

I have gotten this impression from BEING in England from French TV and various European news websites. You are telling me EVERYONE is wrong? I'm not even going by OUR news media and whats on here - I'm looking at the source.

Well it seems much more closed off - especially when a WHITE african was interviewed on French TV and was saying how hard it is to be accept, how they expect her conform to French culture - even though she spoke french fluently.

Well i was not flaming nor bashing. I am stating observations. I have BEEN to Europe, as have MANY people I know - including my brother, and my father used to fly over their once, twice a month. I'm speaking from experience on how it's like. It seems to be very closed off to outsiders and far less welcoming than here. Sorry if you take offense - but I don't think you have been to the US - and you may think that it is very open by your standards, but it's not by American standards. The whole French religious thing demonstrates this very well.

Eärniel - How many Europeans have experience with America on a personal level by coming to America? How many Europeans only us us through YOUR media and our movies and TV shows? I have feeling and I know for a fact from talking to Europeans - that even one's who like the US, have a lot of misperceptions about things here, because they have never been here.

What utter, utter rubbish. Having been to America many times, I can make an informed view. HOWEVER, most Americans do not even possess a damned passport, therefore msot of them have never left the U.S. So, in short, a damned site more Europeans have had experience of America than vice versa.

[sun-star]

Originally posted by Grey_Wolf
In a utopian world where everyone is equal and wears the same clothes everything would perfect, wouldn't it? And no religion permitted (it being the opium for the masses (this being the only sane thing Stalin ever uttered)).

Maybe, if it hadn't been Marx who said it

Radagast, nice theory about:

Europe is not loud, brash, in-your-face America, nor is she the uncivilised, extreme Middle East. She is genteel, civilsied Europe which is rather embarassed at such extremism.

but of course it's nonsense. Such generalisations are hardly helpful. If we in Europe are really so genteel or civilised (if only we were!) we should be able to refrain from such sweeping - dare I say brash? - statements.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Radagast
What utter, utter rubbish. Having been to America many times, I can make an informed view. HOWEVER, most Americans do not even possess a damned passport, therefore msot of them have never left the U.S. So, in short, a damned site more Europeans have had experience of America than vice versa.

This is where you throw out the whole passport argument and I have to counter it. See - we can travel to MEXICA, CANADA, anywhere in the US and ALL the CARRIBEAN WITHOUT a passport. You until a couple of years ago - needed a passport for traveling between France and germany. That is the difference. I have traveled from Oregon to NJ and lived in 6 states. That is the same as the distance between London and the Ural Mountains. I have been to Canada (where I do NOT need a passport, and did not have one at the time) I have been to Mexico (where I did not have a passport, nor needed it). I have been to England (the ONLY place I have needed a passport.

So - just because we don't have passports, does NOT mean we have not left the country. And if each state needed a passport like each country needed a passport in Europe - people here would have them.

Can YOU go all over Europe without a passport? I know you can't - therefore you have more of a need of them then we do.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
You are telling me EVERYONE is wrong? I'm not even going by OUR news media and whats on here - I'm looking at the source.

*sigh* Why did I even bother with the smiley?

Eärniel - How many Europeans have experience with America on a personal level by coming to America? How many Europeans only us us through YOUR media and our movies and TV shows? I have feeling and I know for a fact from talking to Europeans - that even one's who like the US, have a lot of misperceptions about things here, because they have never been here.

Frankly, I don't know. And I try not to make judgements on things I don't know.

But personally I think even one visit isn't going to be enough to clear any misconceptions. IMO in some cases you'll never know a country even if you live in it for years. You can visit Versailles or have a chat about politics in Brussels but you won't necesarily know Europe yet. Because people are too DIFFERENT. The same thing -I assume- goes for America. You've traveled through many states if I remember correctly, JD. Surely they're not all the same? Then why would Europe be so?

Whatever problems the French may have with racism doesn't necesarily mean that the rest of Europe got them as well simply because they're on the same continent. That's all I'm trying to say.

I didn't take offence, all that last alinea meant was a warning not to let this thread end up in a flame-fest. And that was not aimed at you alone.

EDIT: Missed your post in first read, sun-star. But I agree.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Eärniel
*sigh* Why did I even bother with the smiley?

Just because you have a smilie - doesn't mean you're just joking. I didn't know if you were being sarcastic or if it was joking. Sorry if you meant it jokingly.

Frankly, I don't know. And I try not to make judgements on things I don't know.

But personally I think even one visit isn't going to be enough to clear any misconceptions. IMO in some cases you'll never know a country even if you live in it for years.

I agree - but tell me - how many Europeans and others around the world on this board KNOW EXACTLY what America is like? I see them telling me exactly how America is, from our patriotism (which most have NOT experienced first hand), to our gun laws, to our health care system, social programs. I have at least been to Europe and I watch LOCAL French news, granted - it only gives me french news and European news from the French perspective - but it does give me their point of view and what they say. But on the other hand Europe doesn't get our local news there. You don't get WABC in NY or WPVI in Philadelphia. You get our CNN and Fox news - which isn't even the news that they broadcast here. Jonathan thought that the CNN he watched was our CNN. That is actually NOT our news that they show, that's CNN International.

I do have a problem with people telling me how America is when they haven't even stepped foot on the soil and at least I have been to Britain, and as I said - I watch French news. I would watch Russien news more, but most of it seems to be just praises of Putin at the moment.

You can visit Versailles or have a chat about politics in Brussels but you won't necesarily know Europe yet. Because people are too DIFFERENT. The same thing -I assume- goes for America. You've traveled through many states if I remember correctly, JD. Surely they're not all the same? Then would Europe be so?

I agree, and I don't claim to know Europe 100%, But going by posts on this board from Europeans about America - I have a better understanding of Europe than most Europeans have of America. For instance, I am going to Tennessee to visit my sister and father during Christmas. That is like a Londoner going to Rome. A European looks at that as an "international" trip- but then looks at my trip as just a meaningless "interstate" trip. But yes, to answer your question - ALL states are different. In most ways they are as different as traveling from one country in Europe as another. And i understand that all countries of Europe are different, but it seems very hard for Europeans to accept that the US is made up of different political states, with their own laws, own cultures, etc.

Whatever problems the French may have with racism doesn't necesarily mean that the rest of Europe got them as well simply because they're on the same continent. That's all I'm trying to say.

If you look in my past posts on this thread I did ask what was it like in the rest of Europe in regards to racism, because I know that Germany and Ausria and those countries still have big problems with racism. I also know that Europe has a BIG problem with gypsies and how they treat them. That seems to be European wide.

[Ruinel]

enough ... is ... enough

Originally posted by Radagast
... Europe is not loud, brash, in-your-face America, ... She is genteel, civilsied Europe which is rather embarassed at such extremism.

I've been to Europe, I found nothing different there than in the US. Cities are loud and bright, farmland is quiet and serene.

You say that Europe is genteel? It was sooooo genteel for Europeans to systematically take innocent people to the gas chambers and murder them. Sooooo genteel of the rest of Europe to stay placid amid the desperate pleas of those who could escape and report the atrocities.

Yes, Europe is soooooo genteel. And you can add this to your list of what Europeans tend to be... quick to judge, especially when it comes to America and Americans.

My loud, brash comment was my observation of American society. Unqestionably, Americans are more uninhibited, louder and even in things such as Las Vegas. No other nation in the world would dream of having such huge, neon signs, of building a huge, golden lion or rollercoasters in a casino.

I've never been to Las Vegas, I wouldn't want to comment on that. One city does not a country make.

Your comments based on "observations" are quite obviously uninformed and uneducated. I'm speculating that you are predicate this "observation" on television shows sent to you overseas. Television is NOT reality. Not even reality shows are reality.

You want to compare nudity in television shows, commercials? No? I didn't think so.

It's things like that that make America in-your-face, whereas England tends to be quieter, and an Englishman, generally, more reserved.

That's why when I think of hot men around the world, English men are not anywhere on the list. No one has the desire to be in the presence for any length of time of some stuffy, platitudinous, ignorant, self-righteous plebian (like you).

What utter, utter rubbish. Having been to America many times, I can make an informed view. HOWEVER, most Americans do not even possess a damned passport, therefore msot of them have never left the U.S. So, in short, a damned site more Europeans have had experience of America than vice versa.

I stand corrected, you've been here. I don't know where, but you've been here.

BTW, I have a current passport. So does most of my family. I know many people that have them, though they might not need them but once in the life of the passport. Why? Because as JD said, we do not need a passport to travel our continent.

When I visited Europe, most people I met really never traveled far from their home. I can't say this describes all of Europe, but I'm not addel-pated enough to apply that to everyone there.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by sun-star
...but of course it's nonsense. Such generalisations are hardly helpful. If we in Europe are really so genteel or civilised (if only we were!) we should be able to refrain from such sweeping - dare I say brash? - statements.

Thank you sun-star. My faith in Europeans is being restored.

[The Gaffer]

So, er, what was the thread about again?

Oh, yes.

Well, I guess we probably won't get too many French people on this site, so we can say what the hell we like about them. Wahahahah.

I've been to France many times, but only for short periods (two weeks max at a time). However, in that time I've been impressed by both the diversity and articulacy (is that a word? you know - how people put their ideas into words) of people's views. And that includes racism. Overt, police-sponsored.

However, as Earniel says, you can't know much about a country by just visiting it. Other countries have been known to have issues with race. We're all people, and all this Europe vs America stuff is such a bore.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
However, as Earniel says, you can't know much about a country by just visiting it. Other countries have been known to have issues with race. We're all people, and all this Europe vs America stuff is such a bore.

Good then I suppose we won't be hearing anything in that regard from you. I have nothing against Europe - just have a problem of the general negative attitude of Europeans toward Americans - and there is a lot of it out there. I will respond to it if I hear any of it on here. You can take it as America vs Europe if you want.

[hectorberlioz]

Europe and France tend to dislike with people openly wearing religious garb. I would say that this is especially true in Britain, we look askance and feel rather embarassed at such extreme displays of religion. I wouldn't say at all that this attitude is a problem. Europe is not loud, brash, in-your-face America, nor is she the uncivilised, extreme Middle East. She is genteel, civilsied Europe which is rather embarassed at such extremism.

extremism
why should they be embarassed at displays of religion? and i wouldnt call the displays very extreme. I dont see anything extreme about them at all in fact.
btw, America is the greatest country of all.