Bush's Security on visit to Buckingham Palace

[Valandil]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
We are safe - our president did NOT bow to the queen. He and Laura Bush shook the hands of the queen and Prince Phillip.

It is also very kind of Britain to play America's national anthem. Ironic considering it was written while Britain was bombing our shores.

Whew! Sorry UK-friends (and Commonwealth-friends) but I agree with Bush not bowing. It wouldn't be in the finest traditions of our first Presidents - who were all revolutionaries (can't IMAGINE Washington, Adams, Jefferson or Madison bowing to King George).

And why should Bush bow to her just because she was born into the right family... uh... *never mind*

And hey - President Nixon met "The King" and they just shook hands!!!

As for the national anthem... well, we have to let bygones be bygones! I used to have fistfights with my best friends when I was a small boy - and we went right on being friends. Just glad we're no longer bombing each other's shores!

[jerseydevil]

BTW Gaffer here is the flier that I was talking about and some news articles about the group in London...



Group hails 9/11 'Magnificent 19'
Sept 11 attackers dubbed 'The Magnificent 19'
Group celebrates 'Magnificent 19' hijackers
'Magnificent 19' meetings canceled
Rallies will highlight 'Magnificent 19' of Sept 11

The extremist Islamic group al-Muhajiroun is organising four rallies across Britain this week to commemorate what it calls "The Magnificent 19" hijackers who carried out the September 11 atrocities.

The Home Office promises that "every word and every statement" spoken at the events in London, Manchester, Birmingham and Leicester will be monitored by police and intelligence services for breaches of incitement or public order legislation.

But the authorities are essentially powerless to prevent the conferences or to block the provocative advertising used to promote them.

Posters and stickers advertising the events have appeared in inner-city areas with large Muslim populations. They carry pictures of the 19 hijackers around a backdrop of the World Trade Centre in flames and a smiling Osama bin Laden. The posters state: "The Magnificent 19 that divided the world on September 11th."

DECLARATION OF THE ‘MAGNIFICENT 19’ PRESS CONFERENCE (official website)

::: NEW ON MUHAJIROUN.COM :::
::: SECURITY ALERT JUSTIFIED FOR BUSH VISIT :::

...this time around many Islamic Movements will not be demonstrating due to the overriding grave and very real threat of an operation, similar to 9/11, against the US President in light of the various specific warnings and threats which have been made by Sheikh Usama Bin laden and Al-Qaa'eda in their press releases against the US and UK.

With this in mind we, Al-Muhajiroun, urge those within the Muslim community to be responsible and not to encourage Muslims to demonstrate on the 20th of November 2003, which might thereby make Muslims part of a target if any operation does take place. It is a responsibility upon the heads of all Islamic Movements to warn Muslims of this danger and the wise people among non-Muslims will no doubt do the same. In particulúar we remind those secular bodies such as the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) and the Islamic Society of Britain (ISB) not to demonstrate and not to ask any Muslims to demonstrate in light of the risks recognised by all responsible bodies....

[The Gaffer]

Thanks for that; I see that the meetings were cancelled, probably because their own community would have kicked their heads in.

As far as I know, the vast majority of British Muslims loathe this kind of pathetic dick-waving:

mainstream Muslim groups have denounced al-Muhajiroun as a radical organization that misrepresents the views of the country's two million Muslims.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Valandil
And why should Bush bow to her just because she was born into the right family... uh... *never mind*

Quite right, doubly so since he was also born into the right family

[Valandil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Quite right, doubly so since he was also born into the right family

Exactly why I did the "*never mind*"

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Valandil
Exactly why I did the "*never mind*"

Sorry, being a bit sloooow today.

[Radagast]

Bowing is indeed a gesture of respect. Do you, for example, object to we British subjects bowing to her as protocol?

Just for pure curiousity value:- do you [Americans] understand the distinction between nobility and royalty?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Radagast
Bowing is indeed a gesture of respect. Do you, for example, object to we British subjects bowing to her as protocol?

Just for pure curiousity value:- do you [Americans] understand the distinction between nobility and royalty?

We acknowledge that bowing is indeed a gesture of respect. We also observe though (as was previously posted) that the queen would not, under any circumstances, bow to our president. Should not "turnabout be fair play"?

You are free to bow to whomever conscience dictates.

Your continental compatriots though, eventually forced their own kings to bow - in their final act on earth. Interesting to me that even they think a US President should bow to a British monarch...

I THINK we understand the difference between nobility and royalty. We do have the disadvantage of having been raised in a nation where those distinctions were left behind (so we only view it from afar, so to speak) - I say thankfully (in fact, our constitution forbids a US citizen to accept such distinctions without special permission, I believe - but my US gov't classes were a LONG time ago! ).

[Radagast]

Right.

Just to clear the matter up:

IN ENGLAND:-

A Noble:- Nobility is often referred to as the 'aristocracy', 'the first class of the realm' or the 'ruling classes'. In England, a noble is anyone holding the HEREDITARY titles of Duke, Earl, Viscount, Baron and Baronet.

Those raised to the peerage for their lives only (i.e. Lady Thatcher) are considered commoners. To gain one of these titles, one must be created them by a monarch (of any country). One cannot buy a title!

Knights and all the various Orders of the UK (i.e. Orders of the Garter, St. Michael and St. George, the Bath, the Thistle, the Royal Victorian and so forth) are considered aristocratic, but not noble.

Royalty:- Anyone posessing MALE-LINE (i.e. father to son, father to son) descent from a monarch.

-----------
By the way, all European Countries (except Austria) still have a nobility. Including even France for example, no country has actually outlawed its nobility from bearing titles. Even it did, they will always remain a potent social force.

[Dúnedain]

Yeah I guess we didn't need security after all

Reported today there was a security breach in Buckingham palace:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...royal_security


Oh and about the whole nobility crap, frankly I don't think us Americans really care about it Radagast, lol. I am sure the large majority of us know what it is, I know I do. I think it's funny actually, but that's just me. I guess that's a result of growing up in a society where we don't think the higher ups are better than us, not saying you do, but the whole "noble" thing is really a subserviant relationship, especially when the rest are called "commoners".

It's like I said earlier, for our head of state, i.e. the President, to bow to a monarch that doesn't even have power, would be to acknowledge the rule we fought to overthrow...

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Radagast
Bowing is indeed a gesture of respect. Do you, for example, object to we British subjects bowing to her as protocol?

It doesn't bother me at all if the Brits want to crawl on all fours and bark like a dog to her. If affects me not. (Though, I find both 'bowing' and 'barking' a bit odd.)

The queen didn't bow to the pres. Does this mean that she doesn't respect him or our country? What gesture of respect did she show to him?

Just for pure curiousity value:- do you [Americans] understand the distinction between nobility and royalty?

Yes. Do you understand the distinction between nobility and a noble person? A noble person would not expect nor require someone to bow to them.

I agree completely with what Dúnedain and Valandil have posted. We, here in the USA, don't give a rat's @$$ what you people in England tollerate. I'm so freakin' happy I grew up here and not there.

[Valandil]

PS - Not that we Americans are trying to pick a fight about it... it just goes against our "grain" to think of our leader being expected to do so... when it isn't mutual observed and (perhaps especially) when it involves the monarchy we originally rebelled against. Does that make sense?

Hope we can still be friends anyway!

[Radagast]

Yes, how is that starting a whole new country thing after a revolution going for you these days?

[Radagast]

[flame edited]

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Radagast
Yes, how is that starting a whole new country thing after a revolution going for you these days?

Not QUITE sure I read the question right (it's getting SO difficult to tell what we all mean... it's nice and timely to be brief in our writing... and sometimes the extra words intended to clear things up just cause more confusion *sigh*).

If you're asking about the state of our 227 year-old revolution... pretty well, I think - but not perfect yet. I'm glad we have what we have, as opposed to many of the visible alternatives.

If you're talking about a newer revolution of some cultural sort, please elaborate (that was my first impression - but then I later thought it was more likely the 227 year old thing!).



PS: and... are you and "Radagast the Brown" ever going to fight it out over the name?

[Radagast]

I was joking, I didn't mean it seriously and yes, in hindsight, I meant the 227 year old thing.

[sun-star]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Personally I don't even think he should be going to England

Am I allowed to ask why not? Scared he might get contaminated? (j/k)

Originally posted by Valandil
Hope we can still be friends anyway!

Agreed And there was me thinking that was what this visit was all about, but I guess not

[Radagast]

sun-star, is that a Remembrance Day Poppy in your picture?

[sun-star]

No, it's supposed to be a rose, though I did have a poppy a few days ago.

[Insidious Rex]

oh my god are you guys STILL going on about bowing? geez talk about much ado about nothing. get over it. its so meaningless. what ever happened to "when in rome"? if your value about yourself is tied to such trivial things only then you have internal issues of your own to deal with. if yer bigger then all that then bowing or hand shaking or barking like a dog are just small trivial things. lets not get into full blown ugly american sydnrome over such useless shaft shall we .