The Irony of Jackson Bashing

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i like the movies alot but i am a little dissapointed about him taking out the part when they defeat saruman .

[Elfhelm]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Obviously, my point has escaped at least one poster.

What point? I thought it was just you starting another fight.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
What point? I thought it was just you starting another fight.

And you're incitement isn't?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

BB: You are, point blank, wrong. Tolkien wasn't "trying to tell us" anything, except a story. He wasn't using literature to preach at us; he was simply creating a story. Don't try to change that, and don't try to mold Tolkien into what you want him to be. To say he thought change is not good or bad is ridiculous. The idea you come away with is that change happens, whether it is bad or whether it is good, not that it's neither.

Telcontar: No. One could perhaps say that 75% happened in a way similar (in comparison) to the book, but very, VERY little happened "just as the book."

BB again: With all due respect, why do you stay here? You have no interest whatsoever in the community, you barely have half a dozen posts outside of this forum and the topic in GM about how we should make this a PJ-fansite; you do nothing except to tell us that we are all morons because we cannot see that PJ is superior to Tolkien. Why stay here at all? All you ever do is antagonise people.

[thranduil]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem

BB again: With all due respect, why do you stay here? You have no interest whatsoever in the community, you barely have half a dozen posts outside of this forum and the topic in GM about how we should make this a PJ-fansite; you do nothing except to tell us that we are all morons because we cannot see that PJ is superior to Tolkien. Why stay here at all? All you ever do is antagonise people.

No one needs to pay there respects to any other forum.

If some of you just can't believe that the movies were changed than just read the books, or imagine the scene different, or something. There are plenty of ways to look past mistakes, deal with it and just enjoy it. Or hate the entire movies because "well Tolkein portrayed Bree like this, but jacksons is different." oh thats too bad. Is it really being true to Tolkein or just arguing over Petty subjects?

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by thranduil
No one needs to pay there respects to any other forum.

If some of you just can't believe that the movies were changed than just read the books, or imagine the scene different, or something. There are plenty of ways to look past mistakes, deal with it and just enjoy it. Or hate the entire movies because "well Tolkein portrayed Bree like this, but jacksons is different." oh thats too bad. Is it really being true to Tolkein or just arguing over Petty subjects?

Agreed! Too bad people here are too nitpicky and wrestle with petty things and it gets very annoying, especially when they say BB is antagonizing people, when in fact they are the one's that are always attacking him. Grow up people...

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Too bad people here are too nitpicky and wrestle with petty things and it gets very annoying, especially when they say BB is antagonizing people, when in fact they are the one's that are always attacking him. Grow up people...

I don't think anyone can make the case that BB isn't antagonistic. I quote:

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
I don't suffer fools well and that explains why I have vigorously defended Jackson here against the whinings of the clueless.

So calling us 'clueless' and 'fools' because we disagree with him isn't antagonistic?

[hectorberlioz]

what we've argued with BB about; he's asked for.
I would l would love to discuss it with him using pm's. but since he's closed off his pm mesages thingy and starts so many threads about PJ, no reason not to discuss it in them...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
what we've argued with BB about; he's asked for.
I would l would love to discuss it with him using pm's. but since he's closed off his pm mesages thingy and starts so many threads about PJ, no reason not to discuss it in them...

I agree and I also feel we have VALID complaints on the movies and jackson's propaganda. None of us were expecting a page by page screen version - but we were expecting him to give us the heart and soul of the story. Instead he gave us an action movie. Too many key scenes are either left out - or changed beyond recognition. And don't give me the crap that that is what it takes to bring it to the screen - because it's not.


Dúnedain, Thranduil, BB - if you don't like hearing our complaints about the movie - then don't state your opinions either. YOU guys like the movie and see nothing wrong with it - we however and many others do NOT like them. We give valid reasons for not liking them.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I agree and I also feel we have VALID complaints on the movies and jackson's propaganda. None of us were expecting a page by page screen version - but we were expecting him to give us the heart and soul of the story. Instead he gave us an action movie. Too many key scenes are either left out - or changed beyond recognition. And don't give me the crap that that is what it takes to bring it to the screen - because it's not.


Dúnedain, Thranduil, BB - if you don't like hearing our complaints about the movie - then don't state your opinions either. YOU guys like the movie and see nothing wrong with it - we however and many others do NOT like them. We give valid reasons for not liking them.

Well don't be ignorant yourself, calling the movies "propaganda", give me a freakin' break...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Well don't be ignorant yourself, calling the movies "propaganda", give me a freakin' break...

I didn't call the movies propanganda. Jackson getting up and saying how he was making the movies for the fans WAS propaganda. His constant - "Oh we can't change that - the loyal fans of Lord of the Rings would never let me live that down" as he goes and rapes the Flight to the Ford scene or ends up filming that ridiculous Theoden scene, or Aragagorn falling off the cliff and Arwen"'waking" him. The fans were sold a bunch of goods before the film came out and after we opened it - we discovered it wasn't what it was adverised as. So give me a freakin' break.

By the way - before the movies came out - Jackson had said he was a diehard fan of Lord of the Rings and was making the movies for the fans. Then in the FotR commentary he states that he only wanted to make a cool fantasy movie and after thinking about it decided on Lord of the Rings. (Suppsedly he has only read the books once) He's not a fan. The actors didn't have to read the book as he claimed - Elijah Wood has come out publicly and said he STILL hasn't read the book. This was ALL propaganda - to keep the fans of the books appeased. Some obviously have accepted his lies or else they were never true fans to begin with.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Some obviously have accepted his lies or else they were never true fans to begin with.

lol whatever...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
lol whatever...

Well then tell me how Jackson didn't just make a dumbed down action movie out of Lord of the Rings. He had great special effects, great scenery. He had Dwarf tossing jokes christ sakes, Merry farting or burping while eating Lembas.. You say that we don't have valid complaints - I think we do.

[Cirdan]

It's like a drive on a beautiful road... with speed bumps. THe drive is nice but the speed bumps (the inserted material) are still annoying. It is still possible to enjoy the ride, if you don't spend the whole trip obsessing about the speed bumps.

I'm enjoying my last re-read before RotK. I'll go. I'll probably have fun, and I'll probably enjoy pointing out PJs triumphs and failings.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Cirdan
It's like a drive on a beautiful road... with speed bumps. THe drive is nice but the speed bumps (the inserted material) are still annoying. It is still possible to enjoy the ride, if you don't spend the whole trip obsessing about the speed bumps.

Taking the detour through the slums isn't though (Flight to the Ford, Theoden, Osgiliath). It's also like coming upon a quaint colonial village and wanting to check it out - but you can't because the person driving only wants to get to the city as quickly as possible.,

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Taking the detour through the slums isn't though (Flight to the Ford, Theoden, Osgiliath). It's also like coming upon a quaint colonial village and wanting to check it out - but you can't because the person driving only wants to get to the city as quickly as possible.,

But yet you point out little things that do no damage to the overall story. The point of the matter is, anything that has been changed thus far as not affected the overall story nor has it affected the themes...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
But yet you point out little things that do no damage to the overall story. The point of the matter is, anything that has been changed thus far as not affected the overall story nor has it affected the themes...

It's NOT little things. The Flight to the Ford was a KEY character development part for Frodo. It was hardly small. It showed his strength againt the Black Riders and the Ring. I would hardly call that small. Also - Aragorn being a wimp has an affect on the story as does Faramir being an a*****e. I don"t see it that as loing as Frodo destroys the Ring all is good with the movie. There was far more to the books than that. Jackson left out the heart and soul of the books, the characterization and replaced it with action sequences. Instead of getting Galadriel from the books - we are given the Ice Queen from hell.

It's amazing too- the main character and object got all of about a half hour in TT. It hardly showed the true struggle of Frodo getting into Mordor. So what - the Balck Gate was closed - all anyone who hasn't read the books think is that he just went around it now.

[Nurvingiel]

Still at it eh BB? It's been a long time since I posted in one of your threads. I love comparing the book and the movie, they're both so wonderful and at times, diametrically opposite.

There is no modern technology in Middle-earth, but the movie is so wonderful because of state-of-the-art special effects.

The book and the movie are works of art, and therefore subject to criticism. Tolkien hardly ever gets critisized (sp?) for a few reasons. First of all most people (here, anyway) regard him as someone elevated to godhood in authordom, myself included. He's seen by many as being above critisism. I have read 100s of books, and very few sucked. Even the worst book I ever read had artistic value (it was only the worst because the plot was hopeless and depressing.)
There are many movies that really stink (Jackson's is definately not one of them.) Books that stink never get published, but Hollywood produces crap movies that are mindlessly entertaining.
This is relevant because books and movies are in two artistic categories.
Also, the medium's are very different. Scenes that are brilliant in a book fail completely if adapted to a movie. I finally understand why Arwen is in "Flight to the Ford" while Glorfindel is tied up in the forest. This (and other scenes which I found cheesy) was the only way to convey how much Arwen and Aragorn loved each other. In the book, we knew she sacrificed her immortality for him, and Aragorn talked about how much he loved her all the time. Neither of those techniques would have worked in the movie. Movies are necessarily less subtle than books.
That being said, I still think that scene was a bit skewed. Frodo is supposed to be the main character of the movie, and I feel that theme was lost in both FotR and TTT. In flight to the ford, (in the book) Frodo rode alone, and defied the Nazgul's himself. That was a huge character development scene for him. In the movie, they could have kept that part of the scene, and simply inserted that it was Arwen's horse instead of Glorfindel's and then they could have still had Arwen and Aragorn's elvish-speaking scene.
Though movies are less subtle then books, I feel a few scenes are unneccisarily (sp?) unsubtle.
This is why I critisized Faramir's character so harshly. As someone already said, Faramir was needlessly and incorrectly a total jerk-ass. I assume that Jackson was trying to portray how tempting the Ring was, and how Faramir was really a decent guy deep down, and trying to do the right thing. He also showed, in Faramir's scenes, how Faramir felt torn between his father's orders and what he knew was right.

***SPOILER: This is foreshadowing for when we find out that Denethor's nuts. END SPOILER**

I didn't think it was nessecary to pound that into my head though. I love Jackson's movies, I don't think they suck, or that he sucks or anything.

I also repect, BB, that you've elevated Peter Jackson to the same level of godhood in the movie world that I've elevated JRR Tolkien to in the book world. To paraphrase Morpheus in Matrix: Reloaded, my beliefs don't require others to believe the same.

Still, at least a year after you joined the 'Moot, you're still stirring everyone up on the same topic. And I'm inexplicably drawn to your threads.

Cheers /N\

[hectorberlioz]

nirvingiel's post

Also, the medium's are very different. Scenes that are brilliant in a book fail completely if adapted to a movie. I finally understand why Arwen is in "Flight to the Ford" while Glorfindel is tied up in the forest. This (and other scenes which I found cheesy) was the only way to convey how much Arwen and Aragorn loved each other. In the book, we knew she sacrificed her immortality for him, and Aragorn talked about how much he loved her all the time. Neither of those techniques would have worked in the movie. Movies are necessarily less subtle than books.

well, jackson should've known-if he was truly careful and cautious-that je should not have messed with something like arwen.
So what if crazy extremist women feminists(just th crazy ones ) persecute him for the rest of his life for not having a central woman character? maybe he would have kept truer by omitting arwen on the whole.

[thranduil]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Dúnedain, Thranduil, BB - if you don't like hearing our complaints about the movie - then don't state your opinions either. YOU guys like the movie and see nothing wrong with it - we however and many others do NOT like them. We give valid reasons for not liking them.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jerseydevil
[/B]

Never did I say I didn't like hearing your complaints, I "love" to argue over them because of how ridiculous some can be. As for "seeing nothing wrong with the movies" where did you get this information? In plenty of my quotes I have admitted to things that I didn't like and agree with. And as for Faramir being an a*****e, it just took him a little longer to make up his mind. I doubt that makes anyone an a*****e.