The Taming of Jackson

[azalea]

This thread has great potential for spamming and flaming. I just want to caution everyone that if things get out of control here, I'll have to close it.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Saying Jackson's LOTR films aren't "Tolkien" is completely ridiculous and incredibly gutsy (I was going to say "ballsy" but that might not apply to some of you.) Just because you've read the books and happen to like them, does that make you The Official Grand PooPa of what does or does not consitutue "True Tolkien"?

It most certianly does. Because Jackson has done a film based on Tolkien's work, it isn't the books. Be realistic. It is what it is, a movie based on a book. I give the movie credit where it is due, but it stops there.

The naivety of some of you people astounds me.

And the blindness of some of the movie goers astounds me, especially those that read the books first.

Point one: film screenplays are going to be different than books. You have to make the author's point in different ways. Literal translations hardly ever work and they sure as heck wouldn't have worked in the case of LOTR.

I don't think that anyone realistically expects the movies to be exactly to the specifications of the book. But, to add such nonsensical material, like this movie has in it, is a pure slap in Tolkien's face.

Point two: The films are a work in progress. You can't judge book Faramir against film Faramir until all three films are completed. Whether you want to admit it or not, your view of book Faramir is influenced by your memory of reading ROTK.

So what's that supposed to mean? Are you saying that just because Faramir may turn out in the RotK movie to be more like to the book Faramir, it was okay to botch his character in the TT movie? He was never like that in the books, so why make him like that in any of the movies?

Point three: Jackson didn't "make up" Theoden's possession. Tolkien himself implied it. All PJ did was ratchet the issue up a couple of notches to make it more visual and more dramatic.

And as a book fan, more stupid and unrealistic. I was waiting for his head to start spinning around. Give me a break BB.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
But I have to wonder about posters like you, jerseydevil. What's the motivation behind your attacks? People of your ilk want to whine and moan about these films without any intelligent arguements to support your positions. If you get your jollies by attacking Jackson as a hack and a porn-maker, I suppose that's your right even if its ridiculous. But we'd respect you more if you presented actual arguements to support your beliefs.

All of us who don't like the movies repeatedly tell you what we don't like about the movies. You choose to ignore them. You are the one who can't present any real arguments on why Jackson could not have made a more intelligent movie and instead resorted to more action sequences and cut things that actually had meaning. Look at the Mirror of Galadriel scene - perfect example of action that was NOT in the book. The shire was never burning, there were no orcs in the shire, the hobbits were never in chains - Jackson added that in - like he added in so many other action scenes. Instead he cut out the Gift Giving scene - which had A LOT of meaning to it.

The way you choose to present your position makes you look laughable. When you've been pushed in a corner to offer reasons in the past, you end up squeaking out lame points that get thoroughly trounced by people who know Tolkien and his books far better than you do.

So tell us, what's this really about, dude?

I've given you my reasons - you choose to ignore them. Everyone KNOWS I have given my reasons from the time that FotR first came out. You are the one who comes across as the blind fool for your love of the movies.

BTW - when I went to the entmoot gathering with BMilder, Tater, Hobbit and Anduin when FotR first came out - Ben and Tristan's mother asked if everyone liked the movie. I said I did not and my opinion has not changed. If anything I dislike them even more - because now the fight scene in Mines of Moria scene seems to take even longer, the stairs take forever, etc.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Saying Jackson's LOTR films aren't "Tolkien" is completely ridiculous and incredibly gutsy (I was going to say "ballsy" but that might not apply to some of you.) Just because you've read the books and happen to like them, does that make you The Official Grand PooPa of what does or does not consitutue "True Tolkien"?

The naivety of some of you people astounds me.

I didn't just like them - I was obsessed by them.

Point one: film screenplays are going to be different than books. You have to make the author's point in different ways. Literal translations hardly ever work and they sure as heck wouldn't have worked in the case of LOTR.

Which NONE of us have denied. But that does not mean that they aren't seriously dumbed down from the books and hollywoodized action crap. Sorry - but that is MY opinion.

Point two: The films are a work in progress. You can't judge book Faramir against film Faramir until all three films are completed. Whether you want to admit it or not, your view of book Faramir is influenced by your memory of reading ROTK.

They are not a work in progress the movies are done. Faramir was a complete asshole in the movie TT. He was far more caring and friendly in the books. Again - an example of Jackson making action scenes and conflict where there wasn't any.

Point three: Jackson didn't "make up" Theoden's possession. Tolkien himself implied it. All PJ did was ratchet the issue up a couple of notches to make it more visual and more dramatic.

He didn't. The only thing that Grima Wormtongue did in the books was COUNSEL Theoden. There was no magic, there was no possession. That was all again Jackson having to create more action and conflict when there wasn't any. Instead of Gandalf merely fighting against Wormtongue - he's fighting against Saruman. Which I find rather ironic - since in the FotR commentary - Jackson says he hates cheap Wizard crap. Well Jackson seems to lie and people seem to believe him. I think JACKSON is like Wormtongue for the movie fans - and the ones who disagree and see through him are like Eomer.

Also - for your informationI have read Lord of the Rings TWELVE times (twice a year). So - your statement that I don't know Tolkien is completely ridiculous. As SGH has said - we have talked about Tolkien on the side and even though I do not post much in the Tolkien forums I do KNOW Tolkien. She can confirm that do know Tolkien, I just have never felt it necessary to prove my knowledge to anyone. When you read Lord of the Rings - twelve times - let me know.

My complaint as I said - it's that it isn't exactly like the books. My complaint is that it's a mindless action movie. There is FAR more emphasis on Arwen and Aragorn's love and the action scenes (most of which didn't even exist in the book). How much screen time did the MAIN character and object get in TT? maybe a half hour at most? There have been many GREAT movies which have shown struggle and turmoil without resorting to over the top action. More time could have been taken to show Frodo's struggle moving through Mordor. Instead Jackson decided to waste time by having Frodo dragged to Osgiliath and practically GIVE the Ring to the Nazgul. There is no sense of suspense and forboding - it's all just a hack and slash fest. When watching Frodo move through Mordor I do not have any sense of doom or fear or anything. A GOOD director would have been able to make the viewer feel this suspense.

If you can't see the difference of what us so called purists complain about and how you claim we feel - you are the one that is blind. The Lord fo the Rings could have been such a much more intelligent movie.

Since this is my thread - we will now go back to how we will get the creaters of the crap Lord of the Rings movies back for their hack job. I was kind enough to split this from your prediction thread - so we didn't get your thread off topic. Now you give us the same curtesy. We have discussed all the problems we find with the books in various other threads. Go there if you want to continue talking about that. This is a way for us to have fun making Jackson realize that not EVERYONE was blinded and sucked in by his propaganda.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Saying Jackson's LOTR films aren't "Tolkien" is completely ridiculous and incredibly gutsy

I don't think so, I think it's a valid opinion. I quite like the movies, aside from a some disappointments, but I don't think Jackson's films are completely 'Tolkien'.

It's a pity we can't ask the man himself as he'd have the final word in what's 'Tolkien' and what isn't. So in that case we'll have to do with our own opinions, and on the level of opinions mine are as good as yours.

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Whether you want to admit it or not, your view of book Faramir is influenced by your memory of reading ROTK.

Well, it seems logical to me that RoTK would indeed influence one's view on Faramir. I don't see the problem with that. However, surprise, surprise: Faramir is in TTT as well and he was an entirely different character in that movie than he was supposed to be there.

I'm willing to wait for RoTK to complete my view of movie-Faramir. But I'll say this: RoTK-Faramir will have a LOT to make up to for TTT-Faramir. And I hope that I'm wrong, but I fear he ain't gonna do it.

EDIT: didn't see your last post, JD. Apologies for still dragging this off topic.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Eärniel
EDIT: didn't see your last post, JD. Apologies for still dragging this off topic.

No problem. I just don't want this dragged out with BB. We've talked about all this over and over and over again. BB refuses to listen to what we say. He's blinded by the movies and has been sucked in completely.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Eärniel
I quite like the movies, aside from a some disappointments, but I don't think Jackson's films are completely 'Tolkien'.

There is a HUGE difference between saying the films "are not Tolkien" and "are not completely Tolkien." I can understand your view. However, the other extreme view is just plain stupid.

Originally posted by Eärniel
Well, it seems logical to me that RoTK would indeed influence one's view on Faramir. I don't see the problem with that. However, surprise, surprise: Faramir is in TTT as well and he was an entirely different character in that movie than he was supposed to be there.

I'm willing to wait for RoTK to complete my view of movie-Faramir. But I'll say this: RoTK-Faramir will have a LOT to make up to for TTT-Faramir. And I hope that I'm wrong, but I fear he ain't gonna do it.

Don't forget the TTT-Faramir isn't finished until the release of the extended DVD.

[Ruinel]

Damn! You left me out of all the fun? [EDITED]? Can't I hurt Jackson, a lot, too?


Last edited by Sister Golden Hair

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
There is a HUGE difference between saying the films "are not Tolkien" and "are not completely Tolkien." I can understand your view. However, the other extreme view is just plain stupid.

Well you show me where I said "not completely Tolkien" or anyone has said that. We just don't like the films.

Don't forget the TTT-Faramir isn't finished until the release of the extended DVD.

That's where you are WRONG. What is in the THEATER is the FINAL movie. The extended edition just contains some of the stuff Jackson decided to put on the cutting room floor. The acedemy awards looks at the movie as it was on the screen - not what might be in the extended edition. The Theater version is the "official movie" - the extended edition is just extras and a way of making more money.

Ruinel - you can be a part of the Taming of Jackson - just didn't want to speak for you.

Oh - BB - this will be my last comment to you regarding this. As I said - go to the many other threads where the movie versus book is discussed.

[Ruinel]

ehem...

First of all, I want to be included in the 'Taming of Jackson'... though I want a more violent part in the Taming.

Second, BB... in response to this...

The Scene: New Zealand where a motley group of crazed Purists lay siege to Peter Jackson's home. Inside we hear PJ say:

Peter Jackson: It's hopeless...our home is taken.

BB: *prostrates himself at the feet of Jackson* "Master, I live to serve only you. What is your bidding now?"

PJ: *releases an evil laugh* "You shall rise up and slaughter these insolent infidels that refuse to worship your Dark Lord."

*BB and the other Orcs bring forth a frightened goat and tie it to an altar ... they begin to dance wildly, screaming and chanting... the goat bleets nervously as BB brings the ceremonial knife forward.*

*Suddenly, a bright and blinding light strikes the worshippers from over the horizon. A lone she-Elf dressed in silver armor, riding an ebony stallion, appears in the wash of light. She draws her gleaming sword, her red flame hair whipping wildly in the wind, her bright green eyes fixed on Jackson.*

Ruinel: "FOR TOLKIEN! FOR TRUTH! FOR THE FANS! FOR ALL THAT IS RIGHT IN THIS WORLD!" *the steed leaps to a gallop*

PJ: *gasp!* BB! Help me! Save me! *fear grips PJ as he trips trying to escape*

BB: "Master! What do I do? Master! Don't leave me, I'm frightened!" *BB looks around for a means to escape, but the hoards of True Tolkien Fans have surrounded PJ and his band of filthy Orcs*

PJ: *shoves BB in front of him* DEFEND YOUR MASTER, SLAVE!!!

Ruinel: "AAAAIIIAAAAHHH" *sweeps her sword with all her might and cleaves BB's head from his body*

BB: *gasp* *gurgle* *his body falls limp as his severed head rolls off into a dirty storm drain*

PJ: "IEEEE!!!" *holds hands to his head, as he trips backwards over the fainted Fran Walsh*

Ruinel: *halts the horse and dismounts, and walks over to the quivering and pleading PJ, her sword drips with BB's black blood* "Peter Jackson, you are the bane of existence. *her bright green eyes fixed sternly on PJ* You have been judged by the Righteous and True Fans of JRR Tolkien and found guilty on all charges brought against you. The sentence is death! Do you have any last words before I carry out your sentence?"

PJ: *kneeling at Ruinel's feet, hands folded, pleading* "Oh, god! Please, no!" *crying* "How is this possible? I have money... I could give you some... would that make things better? IT WAS ALL FRAN'S IDEA!!! IT WAS HER!!! ALL HER!!! KILL HER!!! NOT ME!!! *sobbing* Please, please... spare me... please."

Ruinel: "They are your judges, not I" *pointing to the crowd of True Tolkien Fans* "If a pardon is given it can only come from them."

PJ: *sniff* "Then let me plead my case to them... please... I beg of you."

Ruinel: *looks to JerseyDevil, Elvengirl, Sheeana, Elf Girl, Cirdan, Wayfarer, Cassiopeia, Hectorberlioz, and the mass of True Tolkien Fans that have been witnessing the events* "What say you noble Fans? What is your will?"

*later, in the storm drain, sewer rats feed on the head of BB*

Edit: NOTE: If this gets edited (which I usually do ) then pm me and I'll send you a copy.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Well you show me where I said "not completely Tolkien" or anyone has said that.

Hmmm...maybe you should trying READING the other posts instead of focusing on your own whinings.

Originally posted by Eärniel
I don't think so, I think it's a valid opinion. I quite like the movies, aside from a some disappointments, but I don't think Jackson's films are completely 'Tolkien'.

Hey, Ruinel that was hilarious.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Hmmm...maybe you should trying READING the other posts instead of focusing on your own whinings.

I do read the ramblings you give. You think the movies are master pieces and there was no way for them to be better. I however disagree. I think they were hollywoodized action movies - nothing more.

Great Ruinel. I think as the leader of the horde of Tolkien fans - since I came up with this idea - you could have given me a larger role.

I want to dine under the hanging body of Jackson - sort of like Vlad the Impaler.

[Elf Girl]

And risk his blood falling on your food?!

Personally, I wouldn't mind being charge of getting Jackson to do the LotR copying. And could we make a small change and have him copy them in Tengwar?

It would be a blessing, though, once he gets used to it. I can write in Tengwar faster than in English...

Let's make him translate it into Sindarin and then do the copying in Tengwar!

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by Sween
I suppose i am a mindless movie goer then?

Sween, your board title is "I'm quite stupid". Do the math, buddy.

"What say you noble Fans? What is your will?"

Well, for my part: It's been established elsewhere that orcs are deserving of neither pity nor mercy.

[Sheeana]

Originally posted by Elf Girl


Personally, I wouldn't mind being charge of getting Jackson to do the LotR copying. And could we make a small change and have him copy them in Tengwar?


Let's make him translate it into Sindarin and then do the copying in Tengwar!

Make him write in out first in English, then English transliterated into Tengwar, THEN translate into Sindarin, to be transliterated into Tengwar. How's that?

And then after all that, I move that we make him individually photocopy copies for all participating in the 'taming' - as in ONE page at a time. Heh heh heh...

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Well, for my part: It's been established elsewhere that orcs are deserving of neither pity nor mercy.

Originally posted by JerseyDevil
I want to dine under the hanging body of Jackson - sort of like Vlad the Impaler.

Originally posted by Sheeana
Make him write in out first in English, then English transliterated into Tengwar, THEN translate into Sindarin, to be transliterated into Tengwar. How's that?

Ruinel:Then I shall give him to the good people of Entmoot (as opposed to the dorks that don't see the truth). Do with him as you will True Tolkien Fans

*Ruinel grabs PJ by the collar and tosses him to the crowd, PJ stumbles forward and lands at JerseyDevil's feet.*

ok... he's all yours.

[Ruinel]

You understand, I'd kill him myself. But this sword is very sharp and the death would be swift and painless. We want him to SUFFER

[Black Breathalizer]

Talk about hypocrisy!!! Sheeeeeeeesh.

When it comes to the release of the TTT Extended Version and the opening of ROTK at the theatres, all you alleged Jackson Haters know in your hearts that you'll be right there watching.

If these films are so appalling and Jackson's treatment of the material so disgusting to you as you claim, then Dr. Blackie suggests you lower your blood pressure by vowing to stay away from the new film and the TTT Extended DVD.

Let's see how many of you can do it.

I can just hear jerseydevil now: "oh, I hate Jackson's films...uh, well, uh, but I'm just gonna go to ROTK to see how badly he butchered up the story this time." riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Sween, your board title is "I'm quite stupid". Do the math, buddy.

And i thought i was just been ironic

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Talk about hypocrisy!!! Sheeeeeeeesh.

When it comes to the release of the TTT Extended Version and the opening of ROTK at the theatres, all you alleged Jackson Haters know in your hearts that you'll be right there watching.

If these films are so appalling and Jackson's treatment of the material so disgusting to you as you claim, then Dr. Blackie suggests you lower your blood pressure by vowing to stay away from the new film and the TTT Extended DVD.

Let's see how many of you can do it.
. . .

BB,

You make a good pt. Perhaps people should stay away from LOTR:ROTK, and not purchase anything related to PJ&co. movies if they do not like the movies and consider them to be too "hollywoodized" (sp?).

But , I think you are also incorrect to assume that just because you think PJ&co did a great job that PJ&co are above criticism. If people go to see a movie they can (and often do ) critically look at the movie and see where things could have been improved, where things went wrong or where things went well.

I, in general, enjoyed the films (PJ&Co did some things well IMHO), but the films had things that I did not like. I also think that the films could have been much better.

»The films could have stayed within the 3 hour time limit and still
stayed closer to the book (this does not mean a literal page by page book to screen adaptation) without having to add extra material not part of the book and does little to add to the story of LOTR.

»It would have been nice to keep the characterizations of the characters intact.

»Although not critical for non-book readers, it would have been nice to keep in mind about the geographic location of places in LOTR when making references to them.

=========================================
Oh Jerseydevil,

You can include me in the taming of PJ.

I reccommend, in addition to some of the other suggestions, designing an AI program modeled after JRRT and tie this to a hologram. Put PJ&Company into a room and force them to listen to AI-JRRT critique their version of LOTR.