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08-31-2003, 11:41 AM | #21 |
Elf Lord
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There's a difference between isolationism and autarky. Isolationism believes that political and economic issues can be separated ; there's no contradiction between being an isolationist and a fervent free trader.
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08-31-2003, 03:37 PM | #22 |
Long lost mooter
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Lizra
It would be (to put it very simply) "bad" because it would change the world dynamics and would cause everyone to have to adjust which = discomfort (probably temporary), Of course our generations hate to be uncomfortable, thus isolationism is seen as a negative thing. I see it as a bad thing mostly in terms of "why can't we be friends?" I'm one of those types that dislike division of humanity based on invisble boundries. But one thing that really irks me is the seeming hypocricy caused by our relationship w/ Mexico (mentioned in the other thread -- illegal Mexicans coming in droves and abusing the social welfare system without putting back into it). I think we need to either put more energy/ resources into enforcing the border, or (more to my liking, but perhaps less practical) open up the border with Mexico, try to help the country so that it would be unnecessary for it's citizens to come here (they'd have comparable opportunities in their own country), and put more energy/ resources into the Immigration dept. (whatever they're calling it now) so that they can better regulate those receiving services here (more in depth investigations into status). It seems so hypocritical to risk lives enforcing the border every day, but then when they're "in," not doing all that can be done to deport them. For instance, in the small town where I used to live, there were a lot of Mexicans moving there (a lot of opportunities for factory and farm work). There was a story in the paper about the welfare dept. (it was a poor region anyway), and how they were trying to get services for all the Mexicans. One of the angles of the article was how it didn't matter if they were illegal, they could still apply for sevices, because they couldn't ask if they were illegal, or couldn't verify it or something like that. In other words, they were saying that "it doesn't matter if you came here illegally, we want you to come on down to apply for free healthcare, food stamps, etc." (You see, it behooves the local communities to do this because otherwise you have less "control" over the population -- unschooled children, men going to prostitutes and unwittingly spreading syphillus around [this was a big problem there -- and if these guys had healthcare, the situation could be controlled better], theft due to not having enough money for food, etc.) But how I wonder does this make the wives of the men putting their lives on the line every day in the 100+ degree heat to keep these people from getting in, when apparently it doesn't matter if they're here or not!
This may seem like a little tangent, but I was just pointing to what one of the effects of isolationism would be -- and this is something that would very directly affect local communities -- if we were isolated from our neighbors. I prefer a more proactive approach, but it is an issue that ought to be addressed. Of course "shutting down the borders" to others who don't have a direct route (as say, Mexicans, Cubans, or Haitians) would certainly be easier. We would have less cultural diversity, but on the other hand it would be much easier for the "war on terrorism." Many people would like to see fewer people from the Middle East allowed in, but that would be "racial profiling," and would be "unfair." The fact that the ones doing the terrorizing are Muslims from the Middle East seems to have little effect on that argument. As with so many things, there are no easy answers, but a little common sense goes a long way. I just don't want there to be any more bombings/ hijackings. Isolationism, or semi-isolationism would probably help that. |
08-31-2003, 03:38 PM | #23 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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The Constitution was developed to create the United States and become a country. Initially the Constitutional Convention was just going to put more meat into the Articles of Confederation - but after a few meetings and discussions - it was determined that they were a lost cause and we had fully become a country with a new document - the Constitution of the United States of America. Everyone outside still think that's federal government has all the power - that is NOT true. Most of the power resides with the states. The states determine their local laws, handles unemployment, handles the social services, handles laws governing the death penalty, handles the laws governing abortion, the Federal Government has very few laws. The power rests with the states and what NJ allows - is very different than California or Indiana. The Federal Government only handles things that deal with the country as a whole- like alliances, treaties and trade. Unemployment benefits - even though a federal program - are handled at the state level and the individual states determine the rules governing how they hand out the money.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 08-31-2003 at 03:56 PM. |
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08-31-2003, 03:40 PM | #24 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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And if you think Americans look down on Europeans and criticize you guys for what you do internally - you're wrong. We don't really care about Schroeder and Chirac - except when they criticize us and Chirac went out of his way of being arrogant toward the countries who supported us. Even going so far as to throw a temper tantrums in a EU and NATO meetings.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 08-31-2003 at 03:56 PM. |
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08-31-2003, 03:52 PM | #25 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Azelea - that's not isolationism. Isolationism is taking our troops and going home. Isolationism is pulling out of the UN, NATO and all other military and international orginazations. Isolationism is letting the world fend for itself without the help of the US - which most people around the world seem be ungrateful for anyway.
As for your statements on Mexico - you know what you described as your solution... Quote:
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08-31-2003, 04:23 PM | #26 | ||
Long lost mooter
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I don't think we should withdraw from the UN. Quote:
BUT I think that our gov should be better regulating conditions in these factories -- I don't think it's ethical or humane for a co. to see this as an opportunity to exploit people for their own monetary gain. I think the same standards should apply to US companies overseas as to ones here: the gov should require the labor and wage laws to be equivalent, so that the poor people there aren't being misused, which isn't any better than when the people here were misused. You might say that if that happened, it wouldn't make much financial sense for the company to go there -- but hey, too bad, and that solves the other problem, doesn't it? Ah, I'm just mindlessly ranting, now, sorry. |
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08-31-2003, 04:56 PM | #27 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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08-31-2003, 05:12 PM | #28 |
Elven Warrior
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Easy for you all to say about the centuries of infighting but they were chiefly in the Medieval Period, the Napoleonic Wars- a completely different style of warfare. America is far too young a nation to have even existed in these time periods. Would it have fared better?
And, of course, Europe is not a single body and I hope to God it never will be. The cultural differences are just too great. And, being a half-French Brit, I enjoy the best of the two finest countries in Europe. And I always enjoy Chirac's little jibes. Lighten up. Overall, however, I completely agree that it would be a terrible thing if America entered Splendid Isolation and stopped supporting the world. Of course, it would lose billions of dollars so it just isn't economically worth your while to stop. Until the time when it becomes unprofitable, enjoy your Freedom Fries and look happy. P.S.- I'm sure we all agree the Freedom Fries thing was way over the top?
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08-31-2003, 06:28 PM | #29 | ||||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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As for France being one of the finest countries in Europe - I like Italy better. Quote:
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By the way - I had brought this up in the past - when our troops were dragged through the streets of Somalia and Clinton pulled us out - why did the UN have to leave? Couldn't Europe supply additional troops? Couldn't other UN forces take our place and why were people around the world so upset we pulled out? They were then upset that we didn't do anything about Rwanda and other African countries - but the funny thing is - I didn't see European troops in their to put an end to the bloodshed in Rwanda. I did however hear a lot of negative comments from Europeans about us not going in there. Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 08-31-2003 at 06:29 PM. |
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08-31-2003, 08:46 PM | #30 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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So isolationism has nothing to do with tariffs and trading policy, just military aid? I guess it's been awhile since I was in school!
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08-31-2003, 08:58 PM | #31 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 08-31-2003 at 09:15 PM. |
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08-31-2003, 11:38 PM | #32 |
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been... kayaking... all day.... too ... tired... to read ... all ... of this ... thread... but...
The world would have no more whipping boy if the US practiced isolationism. We'd save billions (perhaps trillions) on military 'rescues' and assistance to other countries. I think the US would be better off, personally. Would the rest of the world be better off? Probably not, but I guess that would be their problem. ........... |
09-01-2003, 01:21 AM | #33 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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09-01-2003, 01:37 AM | #34 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 09-01-2003 at 01:41 AM. |
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09-01-2003, 05:51 AM | #35 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2002
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Yes, the Royal family did indeed change their surname from von Saxe- Coburg- Gotha (as in Dukes of, from Prince Albert's family, who married Queen Victoria, the last of yet another German British Royal Family- the Hannovers, who descend from King Georg [or George] I) to Wettin, and from therein to Windsor. Edward VIII was the last of the Wettins (and the only one!) until I think King George V (Queen's grandfather) changed it to Windsor.
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Take up the White Man's burden-- The savage wars of peace-- Fill full the mouth of Famine, And bid the sickness cease; And when your goal is nearest (The end for others sought) Watch sloth and heathen folly Bring all your hope to nought. |
09-01-2003, 01:18 PM | #36 | ||||
Elf Lord
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North Corea/ Israel: The last time I checked no one orders the US around, nor attempts to. Give some credit to your own country, please. Europeans have opinions about International affairs, that is a consequence of democracy and liberty; everyone is entitled to speak freely, you speak a lot about it. Armshair Quarterback: JD, I’ve heard you talk about what Europe did, do, or not do, internally or internationally, A LOT. Sounds a lot like “armshair quarterback” to me, if you really dislike it so much, do not engage in it yourself. Social Programs: When Republicans stop criticizing us for having them in our own countries, then you may claim moral high ground. NATO: And what is your point? That the “front” of the Cold War was far from your country and near ours? France: See bellow Quote:
Please. Europe was totally fractured. Nationalism was overwhelming in most countries, and dictatorships abounded. And stop applying present day morals and worldviews to the past. You yourself claimed it is inappropriate a few days ago, but perhaps you think that is not valid inasmuch as Europe is concerned. And you must be joking! So by your own words it wasn’t fair to expect for the US to go to war against the Japanese Empire, that were merrily butchering their neighbours, ACTING well before they turned against you, their neighbour also. Yet, it seems, the same cannot be applied to a Europe, (that didn’t even existed then as an entity), I fail to see the coherency. Or did I said anything about the US and Japan? No? So why do you argue like if I did? If some Europeans criticizing you for “coming late,” tell that to those that say it, DON’T lecture me about it. Quote:
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
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09-01-2003, 01:21 PM | #37 | |
Elf Lord
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“A large percentage of Anti-American bigots?” For someone that lectures to everyone that wants to listen about how the Media don’t give an accurate image of the US, you sure are willing to forget your own dogma inasmuch as Europe is concerned. And to expect that the most boisterous opinions in the net to be representative of the majority of the population, really. It isn’t me that is suffering from blindness. Speaking of, just look at this thread, you basically started to complain because I did hold a similar opinion to your own: “there would be an international crisis if the US became isolationist.” The reason? I’ve “accused” the US of exporting democracy and capitalism, and stated that, in many countries, neither is yet solid, and without the threat of consequences many could regress. Way to go, I wonder that if I had an American flag flying in my avatar you would take offence of what I wrote, or would rather nod in concordance. General complains about France: direct them at, http://www.info-france-usa.org/contactus.asp As for the rest I’ll PM you.
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
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09-01-2003, 02:39 PM | #38 | |
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Unfortunately, what I have heard is that Europe and the rest of the world say nothing but negative comments about the US, that they do not like (and possibly hate, in some cases) the US. This negative view of the US by the world is the reason why I wish the US was more isolationist. Why should we help when everything we do is wrong anyway. Last edited by Ruinel : 09-01-2003 at 03:15 PM. |
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09-01-2003, 03:12 PM | #39 | |||||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Actually - I have never heard a republican even complain about your social programs in the US. They don't concern us here. But Europeans constantly complain we don't have them. Can I ask you how many times you have been to the US to know how we talk about you? Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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09-01-2003, 03:14 PM | #40 | |
Long lost mooter
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