![]() |
![]() |
#21 |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,342
|
There was already a topic for this, but what I did was just merge it into this one (since your thread title was grammatically correct
![]() ![]() I will repeat my opinion here, because I think I had put it in a different thread: although the elves coming to Helm's Deep was a dramatic departure from the book, I enjoyed it immensely, and feel that it was one of the more forgivable departures, for the reasons that IP listed. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#22 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Behind the Walls of Night
Posts: 286
|
I hated it. It took away from the whole fact that it is time for the domination of man. You do not have to show Lothlorien and Mirkwood being attacked to still have it part of the story. Helm's Deep was the Rohirrims fight, not the Elves. Plus PJ could have hired people to play Erkenbrand and more Rohirrim then waste the time on the Elves. I like Elves, they were just not needed. And it makes me have real bad feeling of how he is going to do the Battle of the Pelennor, he'll probably make Galadriel show up shooting lightning out of her ***.
__________________
"....rapturous words from which ultimatley sprang the whole of my mythology" - JRR Tolkien Hail Earendel brightest of angels, over middle-earth sent unto men Crist by Cynewulf (lines 104-5) |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#23 |
Lurker
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Lothlórien
Posts: 3,419
|
What he said.
Also, if the Elves are going to the East to help out, why not go to Gondor, where they are really needed?
__________________
There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium... |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#24 | |
Fowl Administrator
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Calgary or Edmonton, Canada
Posts: 53,420
|
Because Gondor isn't under full-scale assault yet. Who knows, the Elves might indeed show up in ROTK, though it's unlikely. In the book, the Elves were preoccupied with the defence of Lothlorien.
Also, most of the changes to Helm's Deep were somehow related to eliminating Erkenbrand. (For example, Eomer leading the flanking charge instead.) So I'll respond to this comment: Quote:
A partial solution to reducing the cast is to take some characters and bring them back into the story. Haldir was a logical choice, given his role in the film of FOTR. There was no need to spend time reintroducing him into the story, since the film has no time to be overly bogged down with introductions.
__________________
All of IronParrot's posts are guaranteed to be 100% intelligent and/or sarcastic, comprising no genetically modified content and tested on no cute furry little animals unless the SPCA is looking elsewhere. If you observe a failure to uphold this warranty, please contact a forum administrator immediately to receive a full refund on your Entmoot registration. Blog: Nick's Café Canadien |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#25 |
"The Bomb"
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: all over the place
Posts: 1,601
|
He had plenty of time. It was a long movie but I wouln't have minded it in the least if it was longer. Titanic was long too, and that's the favorite movie of how many people? I don't think anybody would have complained if there were no elves. Indeed, it would gain more praise.
My point is the story for the battle was already written, by Tolkien. Why change it!? I guess PJ just wanted to finish working fast. (Sorry about the not seeing this thread by the way. It didn't come up when I searched. And thanks for merging and not deleting.)
__________________
Could it be that one path to enlightenment leads through insanity? |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#26 |
the dumb stoner canuck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: canada
Posts: 2,542
|
i dont kno if i saw just the men fighting in the movie i thought it would be hopeless. but i did like it when haldir came and renewed the alliance.
__________________
-"Down with the system"-Serj tankian of system of a down -“Humans have been on the earth for millions of years, yet we don’t believe man began thinking until he started building walls. And what good have these walls ever done us?”-Serj tankian of soad -"stupid people do stupid things"-Serj tankian of soad "Trying is the first step to failure" Homer Simpson "It isn't going to be easy"-jerseydevil "only the good die young" I AM CANADIAN If the people lead, the leaders will follow. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#27 |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,342
|
I'll give a little further explanation about why I felt the elves coming was a more forgivable change than others he made:
I see the changes in one of two ways, either superficial or significant. The superficial changes have more to do with actions or dialog that don't change the storyline, and the significant ones have a greater impact on the original storyline. For instance, people have complained about Elrond being "mean." But this didn't really bother me because that makes no difference to the storyline as I can see it. People have also complained of Faramir being "mean," and I am one of them, because to me, the changes in Faramir impact the deeper themes from the book. (I won't go into that here, you can go to one of the Faramir threads to argue about it, but I was using it as an example). So then we have the whole Helm's Deep set of sequences. Having the elves come, although quite a dramatic scene, really doesn't affect the general storyline. Certainly it would be preferable to have a closer rendition, but frankly I enjoyed seeing the elves dressed for battle, and the reaction of all who were there. I wouldn't have missed it if he hadn't included it, but it did answer the question I'm sure many in the non-book audience would have asked, "Why don't the elves help?" Could he have answered it differently? Yes! But he chose to do it this way, and it really didn't affect my enjoyment of the film. Although it did raise my eyebrows when I saw it, as the scene progressed, and later on when Haldir was killed, I appreciated it for what it was. The changes that I personally didn't like regarding Helm's Deep were more along the lines of drastic, although less dramatic, changes to the Helm's Deep "plot," if you will, regarding Aragorn's fall, Theoden's "running away," and the like. The lack of Huorns, while again lamentable, was fairly forgivable, as Jackson handled the victory in a different way. I'll repeat that certainly I would have preferred a more faithful version, but I just wanted to explain my position on the elves, and state that I was able to enjoy the movie despite the changes. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#28 |
"The Bomb"
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: all over the place
Posts: 1,601
|
I understand your view, but it still bugs me. He didn't have to answer any questions for the non-readers. (Who knows? Maybe if he didn't more may have read to answer them for themselves) And it didn't make any difference at all. So why did he do it? He's just that kind of guy? He should have kept to the books and there would have been no problems, no contreversy.
__________________
Could it be that one path to enlightenment leads through insanity? |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#29 | |
Lurker
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Lothlórien
Posts: 3,419
|
Quote:
__________________
There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium... |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#30 |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,342
|
Well, you understand it is just my opinion, but the way I see it, the main plot of the Helm's Deep part is "Saruman's army is defeated." That's way over-simplifying it, but anyway, it doesn't, in the "big picture," make any difference that the elves were there or not, or who came at the last minute to save the day or whatever, what matters is that Saruman's army was defeated, and the people of Rohan saved. As long as he did nothing outrageous (although I know you're thinking "I think the elves showing up was pretty outrageous!"
![]() On the other hand, the Aragorn sequence (which really wasn't the best opposing example I could have given) took up a lot of time for one thing. It took all of two minutes to show all the elf-specific stuff there, but the whole Aragorn thing went on for several minutes. AND it sidetracked the story, both the main one and the Helm's Deep part. What really was the "unforgivable" bit was the whole "we are all running from Edoras to flee the ruination of our people," as opposed to the "we are going forth to meet the coming onslaught" thing. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#31 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: minneapolis MN
Posts: 920
|
Quote:
__________________
Gandalf lives...oh and Frodo too. Haldir Lives!!! |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#32 |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,342
|
Right, but for brevity I just made up a summing phrase. In the book they were going to Helm's Deep for strategic reasons, but in the movie it is presented as hiding. I feel that this change is quite a substantial one, whereas the elves showing up doesn't change the theme of the episode. PJ's reasons for doing it I'm sure went beyond them just showing up (his whole "men" thing -- having the elves come disproved -- wrong word, but I can't think of the one I want -- Theoden's cynicism as to anyone helping), but either way wouldn't have made a difference as to the eventual outcome. What I see as a change in plot, though, causes all manner of changes in dialogue from the book. Of course we still come around to the same outcome, but not without a wholly different feeling than when we read the same episode in the book. That I think is what it boils down to in my case -- is the feeling I'm getting from this part of the movie at least similar as what I felt in the same part in the book? If it is, then I feel that the part was well done, if not, then it was probably a part I didn't like as well.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#33 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: minneapolis MN
Posts: 920
|
Quote:
__________________
Gandalf lives...oh and Frodo too. Haldir Lives!!! |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#34 |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,342
|
Ah, I see what you mean. I just felt it came across a lot wimpier than in the book. And Gandalf, Aragorn, and Gimli agreed w/ me.
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#35 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: minneapolis MN
Posts: 920
|
Quote:
![]()
__________________
Gandalf lives...oh and Frodo too. Haldir Lives!!! |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#36 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Imladris
Posts: 332
|
Re: helmsdeep
Quote:
__________________
~[color=sky blue]*[/color]~ ...White was her garment and it had no ornament, save a silver girdle, but above her brow her forehead was adorned with a slender silver lace, and small gems were on it, glittering white, yet her hair was dark as the evening and her eyes were bright as the starlit heaven; queenly she looked and she shone as a white star in the sunlight. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#37 |
Fair Dinkum
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,319
|
Yeah, I suppose it may have been less entertaining without the Elves. The purpose of the Elves coming was to show the audience that the Elves cared and were not apathetic to the situation, IMO. I can't remember much of the rest of the movie, so maybe they did demonstrate their kindness or whatever, but I missed it.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#38 | |
Rohirrim Warrior
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 590
|
Quote:
In the book, an army of huorns (sp) also helped in the battle but Legolas and Gandalf were the only ones who fully understood this. Last edited by Ragnarok : 04-10-2003 at 08:15 PM. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|
![]() |
||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
What All Was Wrong with PJ's LOTR | Wally | Lord of the Rings Movies | 425 | 08-14-2016 08:43 AM |
Helm's deep | nokom | RPG Forum | 83 | 05-22-2007 03:25 PM |
How did Helm's Deep actually look? | Peter_20 | Lord of the Rings Books | 2 | 04-19-2007 10:47 AM |
Arwen at Helm's Deep....... | Dúnedain | Lord of the Rings Movies | 67 | 06-23-2003 05:03 PM |
Arwen at helm's deep? | Aragorn_iz_cool | Lord of the Rings Movies | 1 | 06-11-2003 08:58 PM |