Metaphysical discussion - Page 2

Lizra · 03-20-2003, 01:26 PM

I'm quite sure there is only one reality....(boring, sorry

) but there are many different perceptions of that reality!

Insidious Rex · 03-20-2003, 01:36 PM

How can you be so sure?

Lizra · 03-20-2003, 04:56 PM

Never once in all my years have I ever seen, read, or heard one tiny shred of evidence ( that I believe) that there is another reality. I'm very pratical, and literal, so I gave up the "tales" years ago. It would be great, but time and time again (unending) things are just as they seem. (For me) No surprises....

Insidious Rex · 03-20-2003, 05:17 PM

Hmmm I wonder if the Lizra in the parallel dimension to ours feels the same way.

***Jonathan*** · 03-20-2003, 05:35 PM

Why do some people believe in supernatural things such as magic or ghosts? Why not believe e.g that everywhere there are invisible rabbits, who spy on us without us knowing about it? Or why not believe that the Earth is ruled by intelligent apple trees in another galaxy? (very strange examples, I admit).

I think that the belief in magic has a greater impact on people. Believing in magic is far more interesting than believing in invisible rabbits.
What I'm trying to say is that there is an infinite number of supernatural things to believe in. However, the most interesting things have been picked out by humans.
Humans have their own taste, and have picked out magic and ghosts as interesting supernatural things to believe in.
If you could ask a rat about what's supernatural, it would not answer "magic". It would maybe answer "radioactive cheese", because the rat finds cheese interesting.

Who are we humans to pick out magic as an existing, supernatural force?
Why can't the rats point out which supernatural things that should exist?
Magic and ghosts have their origin in human imagination. Why should any existing supernatural phenomina fit so perfectly well with human imagination?
My conclusion is that there is no magic, there are no ghosts. These things are to "human" to be part of the world.

Jeez, I hope that someone understands my discussion. I'm not sure if I have made myself clear enough

Lizra · 03-20-2003, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Hmmm I wonder if the Lizra in the parallel dimension to ours feels the same way.

Her! She is such a goose!

Lizra · 03-20-2003, 11:48 PM

So you're saying ...Things can't be "of this world" and only fit in on a human plane.......mystical magical things need to have "evolved up", along with everything else, not just sprout out of a human's head, fully formed?

BeardofPants · 03-21-2003, 02:11 AM

Hey Lizra, try reading up on the multiverse theory sometime. That's the closest I can come to to a scientific basis for there being more than one existence.

afro-elf · 03-21-2003, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
afro-elf you been busy lately or something?

Yep. My time is a little hampered.

afro-elf · 03-21-2003, 07:54 AM

What seperates that which is non-empircal in ANYway from the imaginary or the non-existant?

Lizra · 03-21-2003, 08:33 AM

Are you asking what seperates the real from the unreal?

afro-elf · 03-21-2003, 10:26 AM

It is just a query to those who say things exist beyond the empircal. What tangible evidence can they provide?

As blackheart once said paraphrased: you can not PROVE anything exist but you can build a preponderance of evidence and make an assumption.

Those who believe in the preternatural tend to fall into ad hoc rationalizations.

***Jonathan*** · 03-21-2003, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lizra
So you're saying ...Things can't be "of this world" and only fit in on a human plane.......mystical magical things need to have "evolved up", along with everything else, not just sprout out of a human's head, fully formed?

I mean that supernatural phenomina don't exist. There is an infinite number of things that could be classed as supernatural, like magic and invisible rabbits.
I think everyone agree that invisible rabbits don't exist. However, since magic is something cool, cooler than invisible rabbits, people believe in it.
But it doesn't matter how cool magic is, it doesn't exist anyway.

Insidious Rex · 03-21-2003, 12:46 PM

Well I think it comes down to this: There is that which can be proven by emperical evidence and there is that that might be beyond the vale of our perception. So if its beyond the vale of our perception does that mean its not real? In essence it may as well not be because we cant perceive it. Even if it exists it doesnt exist to us. However there may come a time when we WILL be able to percieve it. Like microwaves were invisible (like your bunnies) and unknown for millions of years until just recently. They were beyond our perception. But now we can percieve them so they exist to us. So one would conclude that we shouldnt eliminate any possibilities. Perhaps they are just beyond our ability to percieve them. Maybe some people for some reason are "in touch" with these otherwise unpercievable phenomenon and they come accross therefor as magic or supernatural. But until we can percieve them empericaly then they are scientificaly irrelavent I suppose. But fun to speculate about.

***Jonathan*** · 03-21-2003, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Like microwaves were invisible (like your bunnies) and unknown for millions of years until just recently.

Hmm, good point. But there is a difference in believing in something that has not been proved and finding something that no one has ever believed in.

Lief Erikson · 03-21-2003, 10:39 PM

You know what, Jonathan? Your argument is based upon the assumption that magic and ghosts have their root in the human imagination, and that shows that your assumption is that magic doesn't exist. What validity does your argument have if it assumes as a basis that one thing is true and the other isn't?

You well know that there is no way to prove that magic doesn't exist. Thus the possibility is implied that magic does exist. If magic might exist, then those that claim to have it might have it. If there is no way to prove that they have it or don't have it, or if it does exist but has no visible effect, then whether they have it or not needn't matter to us. However we cannot assume that this always is and always has been the case. You aren't God, so you don't know the facts of every case. You don't know whether an ancient religious cult from ages past existed, had the truth and real magic, but died out. It is impossible to know that, just as from your current position it is impossible for you to say that no people have magic with visible effects.

I have just one other point for the time being. I think a lot of people who go to become witches or wizards would be very disappointed if they learned that the magic was all in their minds. I don't think that all of those people would just 'make do'. That doesn't prove anything right there, but the fact that these witchcraft and wizardry groups, and the cults involved in black magic or white magic, and the buildings where people go to be magically healed, and New Ageism exist and thrive show that they're probably based upon something more than mere belief.

Lief Erikson · 03-21-2003, 10:41 PM

And I could say the same thing about Christianity, for that matter. Too many people- WAY too many people believe that it is a mere belief system based upon nothing but faith, and hope that we get to heaven.

If the Bible is what Christians believe it is, the Word of God, then it follows that we should be able to learn something about God from it. And if we can learn about God through it, then we should look closely to what it reveals about him in the Bible. And if we look at what God is like in the Bible, MAN! He's performing miracles right and left, controlling countries and leading people to himself not by making them have faith up to death, but by revealing himself to them in powerful born again experiences. He then empowers them with the Holy Spirit and leads them on in his name, giving them direct supernatural direction.

The Christian God plainly isn't meant to be a passive God. And those who are passive, those who remain at status-quo (Those whom God calls the lukewarm) he says he'll spit out of his mouth. What does that say for the belief that the Christian God wants us to follow a belief system and that's it? It basically steps on that view and squashes it flat, unless we believe that the Bible can be interpreted any which way. And if we believe that, then Christianity is all personal experience, which really, really weakens it.

I personally have experienced God in this powerful way that is described in the Bible, and I am one of millions. Unfortunately, many Christians do simply go through the rituals or belief system hoping by that and their faith to go to heaven. But all you have to have faith in is seeking; that's how it was with me. All I had to do was seek and pray, and God responded.

Lizra · 03-21-2003, 11:16 PM

I "sensed" that coming!

Lief Erikson · 03-22-2003, 01:42 AM

Now I'm getting predictable.

BeardofPants · 03-22-2003, 02:28 AM

Bleh. Everything degenerates into a religious discussion.

03-20-2003, 01:26 PM	#21
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	I'm quite sure there is only one reality....(boring, sorry ) but there are many different perceptions of that reality! __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats!

03-20-2003, 01:36 PM	#22
Insidious Rex Quasi Evil Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Maryland, US Posts: 4,634	How can you be so sure? __________________ "People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

03-20-2003, 04:56 PM	#23
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	Never once in all my years have I ever seen, read, or heard one tiny shred of evidence ( that I believe) that there is another reality. I'm very pratical, and literal, so I gave up the "tales" years ago. It would be great, but time and time again (unending) things are just as they seem. (For me) No surprises.... __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats!

03-20-2003, 05:17 PM	#24
Insidious Rex Quasi Evil Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Maryland, US Posts: 4,634	Hmmm I wonder if the Lizra in the parallel dimension to ours feels the same way. __________________ "People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

03-20-2003, 05:35 PM	#25
*Jonathan* Entmoot Attorney-General, Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 3,891	Why do some people believe in supernatural things such as magic or ghosts? Why not believe e.g that everywhere there are invisible rabbits, who spy on us without us knowing about it? Or why not believe that the Earth is ruled by intelligent apple trees in another galaxy? (very strange examples, I admit). I think that the belief in magic has a greater impact on people. Believing in magic is far more interesting than believing in invisible rabbits. What I'm trying to say is that there is an infinite number of supernatural things to believe in. However, the most interesting things have been picked out by humans. Humans have their own taste, and have picked out magic and ghosts as interesting supernatural things to believe in. If you could ask a rat about what's supernatural, it would not answer "magic". It would maybe answer "radioactive cheese", because the rat finds cheese interesting. Who are we humans to pick out magic as an existing, supernatural force? Why can't the rats point out which supernatural things that should exist? Magic and ghosts have their origin in human imagination. Why should any existing supernatural phenomina fit so perfectly well with human imagination? My conclusion is that there is no magic, there are no ghosts. These things are to "human" to be part of the world. Jeez, I hope that someone understands my discussion. I'm not sure if I have made myself clear enough __________________ An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻

03-20-2003, 11:48 PM	#27
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	So you're saying ...Things can't be "of this world" and only fit in on a human plane.......mystical magical things need to have "evolved up", along with everything else, not just sprout out of a human's head, fully formed? __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats!

03-21-2003, 02:11 AM	#28
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Hey Lizra, try reading up on the multiverse theory sometime. That's the closest I can come to to a scientific basis for there being more than one existence. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

03-21-2003, 07:54 AM	#30
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	What seperates that which is non-empircal in ANYway from the imaginary or the non-existant? __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-21-2003, 08:33 AM	#31
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	Are you asking what seperates the real from the unreal? __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats!

03-21-2003, 10:26 AM	#32
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	It is just a query to those who say things exist beyond the empircal. What tangible evidence can they provide? As blackheart once said paraphrased: you can not PROVE anything exist but you can build a preponderance of evidence and make an assumption. Those who believe in the preternatural tend to fall into ad hoc rationalizations. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-21-2003, 12:46 PM	#34
Insidious Rex Quasi Evil Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Maryland, US Posts: 4,634	Well I think it comes down to this: There is that which can be proven by emperical evidence and there is that that might be beyond the vale of our perception. So if its beyond the vale of our perception does that mean its not real? In essence it may as well not be because we cant perceive it. Even if it exists it doesnt exist to us. However there may come a time when we WILL be able to percieve it. Like microwaves were invisible (like your bunnies) and unknown for millions of years until just recently. They were beyond our perception. But now we can percieve them so they exist to us. So one would conclude that we shouldnt eliminate any possibilities. Perhaps they are just beyond our ability to percieve them. Maybe some people for some reason are "in touch" with these otherwise unpercievable phenomenon and they come accross therefor as magic or supernatural. But until we can percieve them empericaly then they are scientificaly irrelavent I suppose. But fun to speculate about. __________________ "People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 03-21-2003 at 12:50 PM.

03-21-2003, 10:39 PM	#36
Lief Erikson Elf Lord Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Fountain Valley, CA Posts: 6,343	You know what, Jonathan? Your argument is based upon the assumption that magic and ghosts have their root in the human imagination, and that shows that your assumption is that magic doesn't exist. What validity does your argument have if it assumes as a basis that one thing is true and the other isn't? You well know that there is no way to prove that magic doesn't exist. Thus the possibility is implied that magic does exist. If magic might exist, then those that claim to have it might have it. If there is no way to prove that they have it or don't have it, or if it does exist but has no visible effect, then whether they have it or not needn't matter to us. However we cannot assume that this always is and always has been the case. You aren't God, so you don't know the facts of every case. You don't know whether an ancient religious cult from ages past existed, had the truth and real magic, but died out. It is impossible to know that, just as from your current position it is impossible for you to say that no people have magic with visible effects. I have just one other point for the time being. I think a lot of people who go to become witches or wizards would be very disappointed if they learned that the magic was all in their minds. I don't think that all of those people would just 'make do'. That doesn't prove anything right there, but the fact that these witchcraft and wizardry groups, and the cults involved in black magic or white magic, and the buildings where people go to be magically healed, and New Ageism exist and thrive show that they're probably based upon something more than mere belief.

03-21-2003, 10:41 PM	#37
Lief Erikson Elf Lord Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Fountain Valley, CA Posts: 6,343	And I could say the same thing about Christianity, for that matter. Too many people- WAY too many people believe that it is a mere belief system based upon nothing but faith, and hope that we get to heaven. If the Bible is what Christians believe it is, the Word of God, then it follows that we should be able to learn something about God from it. And if we can learn about God through it, then we should look closely to what it reveals about him in the Bible. And if we look at what God is like in the Bible, MAN! He's performing miracles right and left, controlling countries and leading people to himself not by making them have faith up to death, but by revealing himself to them in powerful born again experiences. He then empowers them with the Holy Spirit and leads them on in his name, giving them direct supernatural direction. The Christian God plainly isn't meant to be a passive God. And those who are passive, those who remain at status-quo (Those whom God calls the lukewarm) he says he'll spit out of his mouth. What does that say for the belief that the Christian God wants us to follow a belief system and that's it? It basically steps on that view and squashes it flat, unless we believe that the Bible can be interpreted any which way. And if we believe that, then Christianity is all personal experience, which really, really weakens it. I personally have experienced God in this powerful way that is described in the Bible, and I am one of millions. Unfortunately, many Christians do simply go through the rituals or belief system hoping by that and their faith to go to heaven. But all you have to have faith in is seeking; that's how it was with me. All I had to do was seek and pray, and God responded.

03-21-2003, 11:16 PM	#38
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	I "sensed" that coming! __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats!

03-22-2003, 01:42 AM	#39
Lief Erikson Elf Lord Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Fountain Valley, CA Posts: 6,343	Now I'm getting predictable.

03-22-2003, 02:28 AM	#40
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Bleh. Everything degenerates into a religious discussion. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

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