Pledge of Allegiance - Page 2

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-07-2003, 01:08 AM

When you say the 'Our Father', do you mean the Lord's Prayer?

jerseydevil · 03-07-2003, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
When you say the 'Our Father', do you mean the Lord's Prayer?

Yeah.

Hasty Ent · 03-07-2003, 01:32 PM

I was always silent during the 'under God' part of the Pledge, and resent the fact that our currency says 'in God we Trust.' The fact that the Christian God is a part of USA heritage means nothing to me; there are elements to our heritage which deserve celebration and others which should be remembered as evil. I understand that the Founding Fathers were Christian, but their faces are already on our bills, and I believe in honoring them, not their religion. Furthermore, we are now a nation that is multicultural and home to people of many different faiths. The separation of church and state is the single most important issue here, for me.

jerseydevil · 03-07-2003, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hasty Ent
The separation of church and state is the single most important issue here, for me.

Well I disagree that they're instituting a religion here. God can actually be anything. They're not saying that you have to believe or that I have to believe. They're not even saying you have to say it.

Insidious Rex · 03-07-2003, 03:31 PM

Ok first let me say that personnaly I really could not care terribly much about this issue one way or another and Im not really sure why its a big deal. I think its one of those things that gets people worked up but no one stops to think hey whats the big deal about this anyway. It just doesnt effect people really.

But I thought Id provide a little education on this if no one has brought it up already:

Francis Bellamy, a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. Francis Bellamy was a Christian Socialist (we took our ultimate patriotic pledge from a socialist. interesting...). His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education (of which he was a member) were against equality for women and blacks (more irony?).

In 1923 at the National Flag Conference (?), under the leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored.

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer. Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church in 1891 because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there.

So there you have the history behind the pledge. I find that pretty ironic. I dont know about you all. Basically the pledge was made in the mindset of post civil war america when one nation indivisible had a very poiniant and timley meaning that has long faded I think. And the whole under god part was just an after thought 60 years later.

***Rían*** · 03-07-2003, 03:57 PM

A question from someone that's been out of public school for a loooong time -

When people at school say the pledge (the ones that do choose to say it), do they still put their right hand over their heart, or is that considered too corny?

Elven Archer · 03-07-2003, 04:39 PM

I don't know about public school but at the small private school i used to go to most everybody said the pledge with their hand over their heart.

Coney · 03-07-2003, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Well I disagree that they're instituting a religion here. God can actually be anything. They're not saying that you have to believe or that I have to believe. They're not even saying you have to say it.

Very true

Do you think that if the words were changed to "under Allah" it would still be acceptable?

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-07-2003, 08:20 PM

It would be different, since Allah is specifically the God of the Muslims. Allah, the Hebrew God, the Christian God, and various 'god-forces' or 'god-beings' have all been called God. 'God' is far more general.

Anyway, no-one has to say 'under God'. All it would do would be to eliminate the part of the pledge for 'under <insert name of deity here>'.

Dunadan · 03-07-2003, 08:21 PM

Maybe they should follow Dave Allen's example: insert the word "your" in front of "god"

Coney · 03-07-2003, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Anyway, no-one has to say 'under God'. All it would do would be to eliminate the part of the pledge for 'under <insert name of deity here>'.

Exactly....why not let people say the pledge in the name of their chosen diety?

***Rían*** · 03-07-2003, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
.......
If the Army and the Navy
Ever look on Heaven's scenes,
They will find the streets are guarded
By United States Marines.

Gotta love them "jarheads"!

Go Marines!

Legolaslvr! · 03-07-2003, 09:47 PM

At school we have this pledge that we have to do to the flag and It goes: To my flag and to the country it represents I plege Respect and Loyalty Wave with pride from sea to sea and within our folds keep us ever united be for all a reason of love freedom and justice keep our flag protect our canada.

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-07-2003, 09:49 PM

So you live at 'I changed my avatar!', eh, Leggolvr? Wot's it like there?

eowyngirl14 · 03-07-2003, 10:03 PM

I don't say the 'under god' bit in the pledge of Alligence.

But I don't think anybody ever notices because I am really a quite soft spoken person in real life!

***IronParrot*** · 03-08-2003, 03:12 AM

Quote:

"Exactly....why not let people say the pledge in the name of their chosen diety?"

Because not everybody has a chosen deity.

BeardofPants · 03-08-2003, 03:14 AM

'Allah' is a literal translation of 'God.' God=Allah. They're not separate deities.

Lief Erikson · 03-08-2003, 04:31 AM

It would sound rather ridiculous to have everyone say the name of whatever god they believe in at that part. Imagine, a classroom of thirty people and they're saying the pledge of allegiance. It is all in unison up to the word 'God'. Then for a second it sounds as if someone put their arm down on the piano keys, and then everything's normal again

. What a thought.

God can be taken in many different ways, for many different religions believe in God, whether it's the Christian God or other. If in the Pledge of Allegiance it had written down in place of God "Jesus Christ", then there might be major troubles with religious issues. As it is, this is a pretty broad and all encompassing term. And as for people who don't believe in God period, they can do as eowyngirl does and simply skip that part.

Coney · 03-08-2003, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
It would sound rather ridiculous to have everyone say the name of whatever god they believe in at that part. Imagine, a classroom of thirty people and they're saying the pledge of allegiance. It is all in unison up to the word 'God'. Then for a second it sounds as if someone put their arm down on the piano keys, and then everything's normal again . What a thought.

*nods* It would sound a little out of sinc. yes.

Now Imagine and American classroom made up of 99% Muslim students and only one of them stands up and says the pledge every morining.....

Or a Muslim teacher who has to lead the class in saying the pledge every morining.

GrayMouser · 03-08-2003, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Legolaslvr!
At school we have this pledge that we have to do to the flag and It goes: To my flag and to the country it represents I plege Respect and Loyalty Wave with pride from sea to sea and within our folds keep us ever united be for all a reason of love freedom and justice keep our flag protect our canada.

Really?!?! Wow, things have changed since I was in school.
I wonder if it's a reaction to separatism?

In 1967 in public elementary schools in British Columbia we were supposed to say the Lord's Prayer and listen to a Bible reading every morning (my first "great refusal" in Grade 7); and I had a friend who went to highschool in Ontario and they were still doing it as late as 1974.

I haven't spent Christmas in Canada since 1985, but lots of government buildings were decorated for the holidays , including specifically religious references such as Nativity scenes etc.- does that still go on?

And I remember when I was first teaching in China in 1986 - when the food there was really bad- we Canadians got TWO Christmas parties, with full turkey dinners (and open bar

) courtesy of the Canadian Embassy, while our poor American cousins got nada.

It's interesting to note that most of the (developed) countries that have official state religions are not very devout believers, while the country that makes the strongest attempt to separate church and state is far and away the most religious.

03-07-2003, 01:08 AM	#21
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	When you say the 'Our Father', do you mean the Lord's Prayer? __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-07-2003, 01:32 PM	#23
Hasty Ent Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 516	I was always silent during the 'under God' part of the Pledge, and resent the fact that our currency says 'in God we Trust.' The fact that the Christian God is a part of USA heritage means nothing to me; there are elements to our heritage which deserve celebration and others which should be remembered as evil. I understand that the Founding Fathers were Christian, but their faces are already on our bills, and I believe in honoring them, not their religion. Furthermore, we are now a nation that is multicultural and home to people of many different faiths. The separation of church and state is the single most important issue here, for me. __________________ Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

03-07-2003, 03:31 PM	#25
Insidious Rex Quasi Evil Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Maryland, US Posts: 4,634	Ok first let me say that personnaly I really could not care terribly much about this issue one way or another and Im not really sure why its a big deal. I think its one of those things that gets people worked up but no one stops to think hey whats the big deal about this anyway. It just doesnt effect people really. But I thought Id provide a little education on this if no one has brought it up already: Francis Bellamy, a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. Francis Bellamy was a Christian Socialist (we took our ultimate patriotic pledge from a socialist. interesting...). His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education (of which he was a member) were against equality for women and blacks (more irony?). In 1923 at the National Flag Conference (?), under the leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored. In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer. Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church in 1891 because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there. So there you have the history behind the pledge. I find that pretty ironic. I dont know about you all. Basically the pledge was made in the mindset of post civil war america when one nation indivisible had a very poiniant and timley meaning that has long faded I think. And the whole under god part was just an after thought 60 years later. __________________ "People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

03-07-2003, 03:57 PM	#26
*Rían* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	A question from someone that's been out of public school for a loooong time - When people at school say the pledge (the ones that do choose to say it), do they still put their right hand over their heart, or is that considered too corny? __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!

03-07-2003, 04:39 PM	#27
Elven Archer Elven Warrior Join Date: May 2002 Location: America! Posts: 480	I don't know about public school but at the small private school i used to go to most everybody said the pledge with their hand over their heart. __________________ "In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: 'it goes on'." ~robert frost

03-07-2003, 08:20 PM	#29
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	It would be different, since Allah is specifically the God of the Muslims. Allah, the Hebrew God, the Christian God, and various 'god-forces' or 'god-beings' have all been called God. 'God' is far more general. Anyway, no-one has to say 'under God'. All it would do would be to eliminate the part of the pledge for 'under <insert name of deity here>'. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-07-2003, 08:21 PM	#30
Dunadan The Quite Querulous Quendi Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oxon, UK Posts: 638	Maybe they should follow Dave Allen's example: insert the word "your" in front of "god"

03-07-2003, 09:47 PM	#33
Legolaslvr! Super Smilie Freak Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: In the entmoot army, trying to get rid of black and blue! Posts: 350	At school we have this pledge that we have to do to the flag and It goes: To my flag and to the country it represents I plege Respect and Loyalty Wave with pride from sea to sea and within our folds keep us ever united be for all a reason of love freedom and justice keep our flag protect our canada. __________________ MO The fat hobbit hobbit knows!

03-07-2003, 09:49 PM	#34
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	So you live at 'I changed my avatar!', eh, Leggolvr? Wot's it like there? __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-07-2003, 10:03 PM	#35
eowyngirl14 i don't know what i am talking about either, so don't ask Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,353	I don't say the 'under god' bit in the pledge of Alligence. But I don't think anybody ever notices because I am really a quite soft spoken person in real life! __________________ 'The coming of dawn is ever the hope to the heart of men' -Aragorn 'Then I will die as one of them' -Aragorn TTT movie “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety deserve neither liberty nor safety” - Benjamin Franklin arms are made for hugging avatar from the avatar shop! made by Eowyn, Lady of Rohan

03-08-2003, 03:14 AM	#37
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	'Allah' is a literal translation of 'God.' God=Allah. They're not separate deities. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

03-08-2003, 04:31 AM	#38
Lief Erikson Elf Lord Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Fountain Valley, CA Posts: 6,343	It would sound rather ridiculous to have everyone say the name of whatever god they believe in at that part. Imagine, a classroom of thirty people and they're saying the pledge of allegiance. It is all in unison up to the word 'God'. Then for a second it sounds as if someone put their arm down on the piano keys, and then everything's normal again . What a thought. God can be taken in many different ways, for many different religions believe in God, whether it's the Christian God or other. If in the Pledge of Allegiance it had written down in place of God "Jesus Christ", then there might be major troubles with religious issues. As it is, this is a pretty broad and all encompassing term. And as for people who don't believe in God period, they can do as eowyngirl does and simply skip that part.

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