How Sauron was depicted

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Artanis
It reminded me of poles enabling some sort of power exchange in between, thus creating the picture of the eye. Imo this seems fitting for a Dark Lord in PJ's universe, where technology is a no-no.

It would be just as true of Tolkien's universe and his industry versus nature theme as well.

[Artanis]

You're right, but in the books this is one theme among others, and not a very significant theme imo. In the movie PJ made it much more distinctive.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Artanis
You're right, but in the books this is one theme among others, and not a very significant theme imo. In the movie PJ made it much more distinctive.

I disagree. I would argue that the machine versus nature theme was THE overriding theme of his books and the one Tolkien was most passionate about communicating.

[Artanis]

But that discussion does not belong in this forum....

[Black Breathalizer]

Artanis: The discussion does belong here when you say that PJ exaggerated this point in his movie.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
Dúnedain, in my opinion your quote proves my point. The Eye seems very metaphysical there.

BB, I am a purist. I also dislike putting technology in the same context as LotR, so the high-tech, electric-looking Eye put me off a bit.

I will get you to open your mind, if by life or death I will prote...whoops sorry went into Aragorn quotes for a moment

[straight_face]

Yes, it angered me a bit when I saw the Eye of Sauron atop Barad-dur. Was that caused by some electrical force that the Orcs were working inside the tower or what? Perhaps there is a large plug that keeps the eye lit, such as a lightbulb. *laughs at mental images of an Orc accidentally tripping over the chord and unplugging the plug*
OrcSlaveDriver: Great. There goes Sauron, completely down the drain!
ClumsyOrc: Whoops. Um, does that mean we're free?

So... what causes this electrical manuveur on the points of the Tower? Is Sauron's eyeball his whole spirit? What if there really is a colossal plug? Hmm....

[squinteyedsoutherner]

The "eye" of Sauron can only be symbolic in Tolkien's Middle Earth mythology. Tolkien has said that Sauron was "the form of a large man" during the war of the ring. He has said in The silmarillion that the "eye contained malice", which means it must be conscious. Therefore, if the eye is real then Sauron is two separate and simultaneous physical incarnations. No spirit in all the mythology has ever had two separate, conscious simultaneous physical forms.

Jackson has repeatedly discussed the problems that stem from "The fact that the film's villain is a "disembodied eye" which clearly indicates they were unaware of Tolkien's statement in Letters which describe Sauron's physical form during the story. They only looked at the descriptions in the book which are incomplete and easily misunderstood (That is Why A.E. Tyler thought Sauron was an elf in his middle earth guide, and why readers sent letters to Tolkien asking him to clarify aspects of Sauron; letters he answered and that have been published). If you read the quotes from the book which are posted above you will notice the eye is "inside the tower" and it is conscious (it is searching). There can be no confusion. Based on Tolkien's own mythology; that is Sauron in the tower, and the eye is in his head, right where it belongs.

[Black Breathalizer]

I disagree with you, squinteyedsoutherner.

If Saruman can breed super orcs and Gandalf can come back from the dead, I think it's very much within the logic of Middle-earth for Sauron to conjure up a magical eye at the top of his tower that gives him the ability to see for great distances.

My understanding is that Jackson will show Sauron in humanoid form in the next movie by the way.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

I would not be surprised if Jackson does include Sauron in the next film. I think he is now aware that his own words (which he spoke in the commentary to Fellowship, and which CLEARLY indicate he was not aware that Sauron was "a large man shape") as well as his depiction of the eye on top of the tower were at odds with Tolkien. Reshooting has been going on since the first film was released.

If the eye contains " Sauron's malice" it is conscious, and cannot exist while Sauron has another shape in Tolkien's middle earth. The screenwriters misunderstood the passages, and so have you.

As for the "death" of Gandalf, you need to read Letters, but let it suffice to say that Gandalf the grey and Gandalf the white did not co-exist.

[Black Breathalizer]

You are entitled to your opinion, squinteyedsoutherner. But the notion that Jackson didn't understand Sauron is just plain ridiculous. Jackson, Walsh, and Boyens spent three years studying each one of Tolkien's characters in depth when they were preparing the screenplays. The fact is that they know Tolkien's work far better than you, me, or anyone on this board.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

"There now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for himslf a new shape; and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed for ever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Numenor. He took up again the great ring and clothed himself in power, and the malice of the eye of Sauron few even of the great among elves and men could endure."


The Silmarillion


Notice Tolkien is refering to the "eye" in a previous incarnation, (before the ring was cut), in a paragraph describing Sauron's "physical rebirth" into Middle Earth. The eye is intrinsic to Sauron, part of the terror of what he is.

The screenwriters may have worked very hard, but I am reminded of a quote a novelist friend of mine is fond of saying.

"It is just as hard to write a bad novel as it is to write a good one, the only difference is talent"

Tolkien had a wonderful, individual, and truely talented voice. The screen writers..........well.................something a little less.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
If the eye contains " Sauron's malice" it is conscious, and cannot exist while Sauron has another shape in Tolkien's middle earth.

Why is this not possible in Tolkien's Middle-Earth? Seems to me that The Eye is simply another type of Palantir-like magic created by Sauron.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

I'm not going to argue this to death. Neither a Palantir nor Galadriel's mirror contain a conscious thought process. The Eye is Tolkien's way of describing the terror that is Sauron, over multiple manifestations, not just the War of the ring. The Eye was not "constructed" or "conjured" it is part Sauron and his power. I think this is clear in the Silmarillion description. The screenwriters misunderstood the text in the Lord of the Rings when they put a burning eye atop Barad-dur, and this was plainly clear in Jackson's comments on the Fellowship commentary.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
I would not be surprised if Jackson does include Sauron in the next film. I think he is now aware that his own words (which he spoke in the commentary to Fellowship, and which CLEARLY indicate he was not aware that Sauron was "a large man shape") as well as his depiction of the eye on top of the tower were at odds with Tolkien. Reshooting has been going on since the first film was released.

If the eye contains " Sauron's malice" it is conscious, and cannot exist while Sauron has another shape in Tolkien's middle earth. The screenwriters misunderstood the passages, and so have you.

As for the "death" of Gandalf, you need to read Letters, but let it suffice to say that Gandalf the grey and Gandalf the white did not co-exist.

Actually I think you misunderstand the screenwriters. First of all, one of the writers is one of the biggest fans of Tolkien and has read his works in and out. Second, Sauron at this point still has not taken shape if I remember correctly. Third, remember in the prologue to FotR, they showed Sauron and he was clearly "a large man shape" as you pointed out above. Fourth, Sauron is listed as part of the cast for RotK.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
"There now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for himslf a new shape; and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed for ever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Numenor. He took up again the great ring and clothed himself in power, and the malice of the eye of Sauron few even of the great among elves and men could endure."

Major difference here bro, at this point Sauron had a form, as the ring was in his presence. When he didn't have the ring, he had no form....

[Dúnedain]

Another way to look at the Eye atop the tower is that the filmakers could have included that to show the "metaphysical" eye, but they wanted to convey it to the audience, 75% of which never heard of Tolkien or Sauron's eye previously...

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Sauron had his physical shape for the whole book. That is a fact.

I posted the earlier account from the Silmarillion to show that Tolkien used the "eye" in reference to Sauron in a previous incarnation because the "eye" is intrinsic to Sauron, not something he built in the third age.

later......

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
Sauron had his physical shape for the whole book. That is a fact.

Mind pointing this fact out?

[Black Breathalizer]

The winner of this bout and STIIIIIIIIIIIIIILL heavyweight champion of the woooooooorld.... Dúnedain!!!