If you were Saruman, would you have come down from Orthanc?

[Wayfarer]

I think that's a badly worded question. If you were Saruman, you would obviously do exactly what he did. The better question is: What would you do in his place.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
I think that's a badly worded question. If you were Saruman, you would obviously do exactly what he did. The better question is: What would you do in his place.

Clean the carpets, close up the machine shops and chem labs, bring in my own furniture, put up new curtains as well as a "Keep Out: GrÃ*ma, this means YOU!" sign, and so forth. (Sorry, Wayfarer, I couldn't help it. )

I don't think Gandalf was trying to get Orthanc for himself, he just didn't want Saruman to have it to fall back on if needed, and use it as a base for evil works, like he was doing before.

Agreed, he didn't want Orthanc for himself. and it was indeed a dangerous property to have to deal with at that point, even after the Ents wrecked the outer parts, but I think he knew as well as Saruman did that he didn't have the right to its keys, and also knew that it would set S. off if he asked for them. It wasn't yet Aragorn's time, but he could have had Saruman give them to Treebeard, as he eventually did, thus also giving him an opportunity to apologize to his neighbors.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Why didn't he have the right? He was the head of the Order now, and also a high power amongst those who overthrew or conquered Saruman. Seems to me like he certainly did have the right.

[Wayfarer]

I think you're asking the wrong question again. The issue isn't whether Gandalf had the right to demand his key, it's whether saruman had the right to keep it.

Remember, he was given the key to orthanc by the very people who he was working to destroy. If that isn't grounds for an eviction, I don't know what is.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Sure, Gandalf had the right to break Saruman's staff, if Saruman didn't clean up his act quickly (and he didn't). But Orthanc, now, that was a different matter:

...<Saruman> took up his abode in Isengard. For this, Beren, Steward of Gondor, gave him leave, for Gondor still claimed Isengard as a fortress of its realm, and not part of Rohan. Beren also gave into Saruman's keeping the keys of Orthanc."
The Lord of the Rings,, Appendix A, Part II

Saruman hadn't made a move towards Gondor yet, so there go those grounds for eviction.

Saruman had, of course, abrogated his right to Isengard by his treason, especially as it had been found out. But Gandalf was never the agent of Gondor, and certainly not at that point; indeed, he and Denethor were snarling at other most all the time when he did go down there. He could neither rightfully take the keys nor promise to give them back again, if S. behaved himself.

Of course, one could argue that Gandalf was the agent of the Valar, who outranked the kings, let alone the Stewards. But I think they should have gone into Treebeard's keeping, or at least that of Gondor's ally, Rohan (i.e., King Théoden).

[Nurvingiel]

Why wouldn't Gandalf be a good keeper? He's responsible, wise, and not overly ambitious.

True he hadn't yet moved against Gondor, but he might as well have because (1) he attacked Rohan, Gondor's allies, and (2) he was in league with Sauron, Gondor's enemy.

He was a traitor, that's good enough for me. Besides, he was allowed to go free, even if it was staff-less and Orthanc-less. I think that was pretty nice.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

About Gandalf; he wasn't an agent of Gondor, but he WAS an agent of the Valar, and I believe Letters says he was indirectly an agent of Iluvatar. If you ask me, that is DARN fine credentials. That would basically give him the authority for mostly anything, as long as he stayed within the guidelines of his superiors, in my opinion.

EDIT: Gah! Somehow missed the last paragraph in LoI's post!

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Why wouldn't Gandalf be a good keeper? He's responsible, wise, and not overly ambitious.

He'd be a terrific keeper. However, he did not have the right; Gondor clearly did. And in part Gandalf was fighting, and had always fought, to preserve everywhere that concept of right superseding might. Yet in that instance, he did what he did because he had the power to do so, not because it was right.

I'm not saying he was bad to do that, BTW. I think he acted decisively to end the threat, and it worked. It just illustrates, very subtly, the power of evil to tarnish good, even in defeat.

True he hadn't yet moved against Gondor, but he might as well have because (1) he attacked Rohan, Gondor's allies, and (2) he was in league with Sauron, Gondor's enemy.

Well, not quite totally in league with Sauron, at least in his own mind (Sauron had trapped him, though, of course). He had kept an army not yet joined to Sauron's, and had waged war on his own.

A third possibility was that he was in league, or planned to be in league with Denethor (after presenting him with the fait accompli of a vanquished Rohan to force him to turn to Saruman for help), thus thinking he could have wriggled out of any commitments he may have made to Sauron and still come out on top. And such a partnership wouldn't have violated the terms of the lease at all.

He was a traitor, that's good enough for me. Besides, he was allowed to go free, even if it was staff-less and Orthanc-less. I think that was pretty nice.

Yes it was. They even spoke him fair when they met him on the trip north.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by The Lady of Ithilien

I'm not saying he was bad to do that, BTW. I think he acted decisively to end the threat, and it worked. It just illustrates, very subtly, the power of evil to tarnish good, even in defeat.

That's very interesting! Do you really think Gandalf was slightly corrupted? I find that hard to believe, but it's possible.

Maybe he was corrupted in that he was forced to use might instead of right. Even though, Aragorn could have taken the Key afterwards.

One theme that comes up in the Sword and the Stone is Might for Right. Maybe it comes up in LotR as well.

Originally posted by The Lady of Ithilien

A third possibility was that he was in league, or planned to be in league with Denethor (after presenting him with the fait accompli of a vanquished Rohan to force him to turn to Saruman for help), thus thinking he could have wriggled out of any commitments he may have made to Sauron and still come out on top. And such a partnership wouldn't have violated the terms of the lease at all.

I'm really liking your subtle ideas here.

[Narsil's Master]

i believe i would stay in orthanic until the ents left and then run as fast as the wind!

[Guardian_of_the_Forest]

If I were me, I may have come down. As Saruman, I definitely would have stayed.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Do you really think Gandalf was slightly corrupted?

Well, it's a little difficult to explain. Gandalf was the White now, of course, and any "grayness" he may have had in him had passed (note in the description of Saruman that he has some black hairs in his beard).

Say, rather, that Gandalf the Maia was resident in Arda where the will of Melkor the Vala, "the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä," ("The Silmarillion," end of Chapter 7), still remained, as did the effects of his lies, and Gandalf like all others was vulnerable to its machinations, no matter what he did.

Maybe he was corrupted in that he was forced to use might instead of right.

Yes.

Even though, Aragorn could have taken the Key afterwards.

Well, not at the time of confrontation with Saruman, as he first had to win the kingdom(s), but certainly later. It's interesting how JRRT set up the actual sequence of Aragorn's finally getting the Keys, starting with Gandalf:

"...But the Tower of Orthanc now goes back to the King, to whom it belongs. Though maybe he will not need it."

"That will be seen later," said Aragorn. "But I will give to Ents all this valley to do with as they will, so long as they keep a watch upon Orthanc and see that none enter it without my leave."

"It is locked," said Treebeard. "I made Saruman lock it and give me the keys. Quickbeam has them."

Quickbeam bowed....and handed to Aragorn two great black keys of intricate shape, joined by a ring of steel. "Now I thank you once more," said Aragorn, "and I bid you farewell...."

With Saruman now out of the way, here's Gandalf suddenly pointing out, again in Aragorn's presence, that Orthanc belongs to the King. A new thought comes up: maybe it was less corruption, though certainly that possibility was always present, and more Gandalf's awareness that it was not yet Aragorn's time and so he was shielding the man at first.

It's also interesting that Treebeard didn't hand the Keys over to Aragorn himself but delegated that to a subordinate. Very symbolic of the different types of "ownership" of the area.

Can't resist it:

I'm really liking your subtle ideas here.

Do not meddle in the affairs of transcriptionists, for they are subtle and quick to anger. Well...subtle, anyway.

[Evenstar1400]

if i were saruman, id be too afraid of the ents to leave the building

[#1GaMGeeGuRL]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
I disagree with you on that last point, I don't think Gandalf was trying to get Orthanc for himself, he just didn't want Saruman to have it to fall back on if needed, and use it as a base for evil works, like he was doing before.

If Gandalf had wanted to be truly superior than he would have tried to help Saruman instead of turning him out of Orthanc. Because if you're looking at it from the 'superior' perspective then I think that is how Gandalf would have been superior. He was just condescending in my point of view. Maybe if Saruman kept Orthanc he wouldn't have gone and terrorized the Shire. There's not much he could do otherwise without his staff and Sauron.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by The Lady of Ithilien
He'd be a terrific keeper. However, he did not have the right; Well, not quite totally in league with Sauron, at least in his own mind (Sauron had trapped him, though, of course). He had kept an army not yet joined to Sauron's, and had waged war on his own.

I thought that Saruman was Sauron's lieutenant, wasn't he? And then he betrayed Sauron and went out on his own.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I thought that Saruman was Sauron's lieutenant, wasn't he? And then he betrayed Sauron and went out on his own.

More like he was on his own to begin with, along with the other Istari and their chief. He was good and then gradually warped into being a traitor to the good guys.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I know he was on his own in the beginning, but I could have sworn that he became Sauron's lieutenant, and then struck out on his own.

[FrodoFriend]

In the book Saruman never sided with Sauron; he was working for his own ends and his own power the whole time. Only in the movie they changed it (possibly to make it less complicated, and to show that the Wise can also be corrupted...).

I don't think Gandalf wanted Orthanc for himself. What would he do with it? He had to be mobile at that time, not sitting in Isengard. He was needed in Gondor and in Rohan. I think he only wanted the key to Orthanc so that he could expel the danger on Rohan's flank for good by installing someone loyal. Then he would still have gone off on the same route he took, to Gondor and the Pelennor Fields.

[FrodoFriend]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
I think that's a badly worded question. If you were Saruman, you would obviously do exactly what he did. The better question is: What would you do in his place.

I'd probably stick to the 'Bring me the Halflings!' part of the plan . . .

[#1GaMGeeGuRL]

I'm just saying that yes Saruman did have some rights to Orthance. Without magic (kept in his staff) he could do nothing and probably would have stewed up there with Wormtongue. What can I say? He was a ruined wizard and would remain so. Everyone deserves a little dignity. Besides, I am still mad beyond belief at what he did to the Shire! He probably wouldn't have done that if he was left in Orthanc.