travilling ove seas - Page 2

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 09-26-2002, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by markedel
Why wouldn't Frodo go to Valinor? It's not as if the eldar weren't forgiven and allowed to go there eventually...

True, but Frodo was not of the Eldar. It was forbidden for Mortals to set foot upon the Undying Lands. That was the very reason for why Earendil was placed in the sky.

TinuvielChild · 09-29-2002, 10:32 PM

Yes, but FRODO LIVES!!!!! According to all you people, Frodo dies, and I'm sure he does, except for the fact that Frodo LIVES!!!!!

Good explanations, all. Much better than I could do, for sure.

Scatha · 10-07-2002, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by samwiselvr2008
My friend told me that whene a charicter travelled over the seas (i think thats how tolkien put it, maybe passed over the seas?)that they had died, but i don't know if thats true or not! what do you think?

I thought the whole purpose in going across the sea was to not die. Hence the name the "Undying lands". When elves died or withered into depression they were "re-born" in the Halls of Waiting in Valinor.

The Ringbearer · 10-07-2002, 04:49 AM

Frodo Lives!!!!

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-07-2002, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scatha
I thought the whole purpose in going across the sea was to not die. Hence the name the "Undying lands". When elves died or withered into depression they were "re-born" in the Halls of Waiting in Valinor.

The whole purpose for the Elves to go across the sea was to not fade. When the Elves died in Middle-earth they returned to the Halls of Mandos and were given the choice of re-embodiment and if they chose to be re-embodied, they could return to Valinor, there to live until the end of Arda free of the burdens of Middle-earth. It states in the HoMe that an Elf that died of grief may or may not be re-embodied, because this death indicated that a taint of some sort existed to their fea and therefore re-embodiment could be refused. Again, Frodo and the others went to Tol Eressea. Tol Eressea was outside of the Undying Lands, but had once received the light of the Two Trees.

Scatha · 10-08-2002, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
The whole purpose for the Elves to go across the sea was to not fade. When the Elves died in Middle-earth they returned to the Halls of Mandos and were given the choice of re-embodiment and if they chose to be re-embodied, they could return to Valinor, there to live until the end of Arda free of the burdens of Middle-earth. It states in the HoMe that an Elf that died of grief may or may not be re-embodied, because this death indicated that a taint of some sort existed to their fea and therefore re-embodiment could be refused. Again, Frodo and the others went to Tol Eressea. Tol Eressea was outside of the Undying Lands, but had once received the light of the Two Trees.

Do Orcs go to the Halls of Mandos and be reborn? They are elves afterall.

Ñólendil · 10-08-2002, 01:32 AM

Actually they're not, in any sense of the word, but that's a whole 'nother topic

Do a search on it, if you like.

The fate of Orks is a complete mystery and the more real information you will get, the more convinced of that you will be. We'll find about Orkish fate we find out about Bombadillish identity.

Scatha · 10-08-2002, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ñólendil
Actually they're not, in any sense of the word, but that's a whole 'nother topic Do a search on it, if you like.

The fate of Orks is a complete mystery and the more real information you will get, the more convinced of that you will be. We'll find about Orkish fate we find out about Bombadillish identity.

You mean to say orcs and elves are not the same? But according to Tolkien, weren't orcs once elves who were corrupted and mutilated by Melkor?

"Little is known for certain of the beginnings of the Orcs, the footsoldiers of the Enemy. It is said that they were in origin corrupted Elves captured by Melkor before the beginning of the First Age. "

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-08-2002, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scatha
You mean to say orcs and elves are not the same? But according to Tolkien, weren't orcs once elves who were corrupted and mutilated by Melkor?

"Little is known for certain of the beginnings of the Orcs, the footsoldiers of the Enemy. It is said that they were in origin corrupted Elves captured by Melkor before the beginning of the First Age. "

Somewhere along the line Tolkien changed this and it then became that Elves were bred from Men. I have been thinking about this though and it seems to me that from the Silmarillion that Orcs existed before the awakening of Men didn't they?

Scatha · 10-08-2002, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Somewhere along the line Tolkien changed this and it then became that Elves were bred from Men. I have been thinking about this though and it seems to me that from the Silmarillion that Orcs existed before the awakening of Men didn't they?

In which book does Tolien state that Elves were bred from men? I thought both elves and men were of separate and distinct origins. I am new to this and would like to get more info if possible.

Artanis · 10-08-2002, 06:11 PM

I think the typo devil was here

Scatha · 10-08-2002, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
I think the typo devil was here

sorry...TOLKIEN

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-08-2002, 09:22 PM

Scatha, I can't be exact about which text it is in and Nolendil may be able to tell you for sure, but I think it is in the Peoples of Middle-earth, volume twelve of the HoMe series.

Ñólendil · 10-08-2002, 10:07 PM

By "elves", Sister Golden Hair meant "Orks". I imagine this is what Artanis meant by typos.

Orks came from Men, but as I said, that's a whole 'nother topic. You can read about it in Myths Transformed in Morgoth's Ring.

SGH, you wondered about Orks being around before Men. Not true Orks. What the Elves of the Water of Awakening saw were Úmaiar who had taken on twisted shapes of horror. The same words the primitive Kwendî used for them were later applied to the the true Orks made by Sauron after the Awakening of Men. (The idea was Melkor's, but Sauron is the one who achieved it, when Melkor was in captivity).

This is all been thoroughly discussed before here on Entmoot, however, several times, and I am sorry to drag it out again.

Artanis · 10-09-2002, 02:30 AM

Ñólendil is right, I referred to SGH's post, not your Scatha. Sorry!

I should have explained.

Btw, welcome to the moot Scatha!

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-09-2002, 02:28 PM

Ahhhhh! I'm so slow. Yes the typo devil, or an attack of stupid came my way. I just now saw this.

Yes, Orcs is what I meant. Thank you Nolendil and Artanis.

**Nurvingiel** · 10-09-2002, 04:26 PM

not even this one. But, though it hurts me to say it, didn't Orcs came from Elves?

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-09-2002, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
not even this one. But, though it hurts me to say it, didn't Orcs came from Elves?

That is what we are talking about, No, not in the end in Tolkien's mind. They came from Men.

Kirinki54 · 10-09-2002, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
This was where Frodo, Bilbo, Sam, and Gimli went. This does not insure their immortality, but gave them a chance to heal from their burdons that were imposed upon them when they bore the ring. Gimli was a special exception.

In fact they were healed but their lives became shorter.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-09-2002, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kirinki54
In fact they were healed but their lives became shorter.

Exactly. Being mortal, and going to the Immortal lands, guarenteed a lesser life span.

09-29-2002, 10:32 PM	#22
TinuvielChild Padawan Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The Barony of Carolingia Posts: 2,176	Yes, but FRODO LIVES!!!!! According to all you people, Frodo dies, and I'm sure he does, except for the fact that Frodo LIVES!!!!! Good explanations, all. Much better than I could do, for sure. __________________ There are only four questions of value in life: What is sacred? Of what is the spirit made? What is worth living for? What is worth dying for? The answer to each is the same: ONLY LOVE. Dance as though nobody's watching. Sing as though nobody's listening. Dream as though you'll live forever. Live as though you'll die tomorrow. EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO and proud! FRODO LIVES!!!!!

10-07-2002, 04:49 AM	#24
The Ringbearer Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Crickhollow in the summer, and Rivendell in the winter Posts: 397	Frodo Lives!!!! __________________ 'Go away, and never come back!!' '......what?' 'But you're a part of this world! Aren't you?' Frodo lives!

10-08-2002, 01:32 AM	#27
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Actually they're not, in any sense of the word, but that's a whole 'nother topic Do a search on it, if you like. The fate of Orks is a complete mystery and the more real information you will get, the more convinced of that you will be. We'll find about Orkish fate we find out about Bombadillish identity. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

10-08-2002, 06:11 PM	#31
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	I think the typo devil was here __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

10-08-2002, 10:07 PM	#34
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	By "elves", Sister Golden Hair meant "Orks". I imagine this is what Artanis meant by typos. Orks came from Men, but as I said, that's a whole 'nother topic. You can read about it in Myths Transformed in Morgoth's Ring. SGH, you wondered about Orks being around before Men. Not true Orks. What the Elves of the Water of Awakening saw were Úmaiar who had taken on twisted shapes of horror. The same words the primitive Kwendî used for them were later applied to the the true Orks made by Sauron after the Awakening of Men. (The idea was Melkor's, but Sauron is the one who achieved it, when Melkor was in captivity). This is all been thoroughly discussed before here on Entmoot, however, several times, and I am sorry to drag it out again. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan Last edited by Ñólendil : 10-08-2002 at 10:08 PM.

10-08-2002, 09:22 PM	#33
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Scatha, I can't be exact about which text it is in and Nolendil may be able to tell you for sure, but I think it is in the Peoples of Middle-earth, volume twelve of the HoMe series.

10-09-2002, 02:30 AM	#35
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	Ñólendil is right, I referred to SGH's post, not your Scatha. Sorry! I should have explained. Btw, welcome to the moot Scatha! __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

10-09-2002, 02:28 PM	#36
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Ahhhhh! I'm so slow. Yes the typo devil, or an attack of stupid came my way. I just now saw this. Yes, Orcs is what I meant. Thank you Nolendil and Artanis.

10-09-2002, 04:26 PM	#37
Nurvingiel Co-President of Entmoot Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 8,397	There are no dumb questions... not even this one. But, though it hurts me to say it, didn't Orcs came from Elves?