Summit

[mirrille]

Yes. As long as a certain segment of the population believes in religion, it has a place in schools. In that we need to understand how it influences us and the way we have ordered our society. As Anduril says. (Not, of course, as indoctrination, because not everyone believes it and that kind of thing causes problems. I had hoped it had gone the way of residential schools. But exposure and education, yes.) Just don't hijack science class to do it. It doesn't want to fit and you can't force it to. If fits much better in social studies. It feels happier there, and consequently, makes more sense in that context. If you really want to teach religion and science in parallel, then I suggest a comparative philosophy class, because they are different philosophies, and a discussion of comparison/contrast could be good for students.

if you're going to allow Christianity into schools you better also let in Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Paganism, etc

That can also be done without much problem. That is what my high school did. A quick survey course in the major world religions. We went over Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Wicca, and a few others. Just enough to get the history (how it all began), the basic tenets, and explore some of the special quirks and/or rituals. Since there are so many religions and only a limited amount of time, we then got a list of religions we missed and got to pick one to research and present to the class. I did my project on Taoism. I think that worked quite well and I learned alot that I didn't know before. For your information, my high school was a private, non-denominal school with historical ties to the Anglican Church that have been sort of kept up for traditional reasons. I believe the foundresses were Scottish and that's why. If a private school with religious ties can incorporate this material into a curriculum with no problems, I fail to see how a public school, which is supposed to have no religious ties to any one faith, can't. Also, prior to that I was in a Catholic school (yes, nuns, cute little kilts, and all that) and they had no problem teaching evolution in science class, then having us trot over to religion class and discuss creationism. Again, I see no reason why a supposedly non-denominal school can't do even that. Unless they are too lazy to think or stupid.
Sometimes, it's not that hard to work things out.

[Andúril]

Hobbit:
Now Anduril, do you mean you want religion taught or christianity taught?

Religion. A comparitive subject comprising of all major religions, with both historical and theological viewpoints.

Now, whether or not the teachers would be able to set aside their religious bias in their lecturing is another story. Proselytizing, obviously, is unwanted.

It would be similar in nature to a philosophy class, where all major worldviews are taught without being heavily skewed towards any particular one.

[HOBBIT]

by theological you mean all the myths and such should be taught of each religion? Well then that would be a whole class in on itself. If you teach the bible then you would have to teach the torah, Koran, etc, equally. And if you want to teach creation stories, there are hundreds upon thousands of different creation stories from all over the world and from many different religions. I don't know why emplynx seems to think that the Christian version above all should be taught hand in hand with science.


In any event, any religion taught in any public school would have to be purely historical. Teachers could not tell children which one they think is true. None of them could be taught as truth.

Why all major religions?? Thats not a good thing. And what do you mean by major? Judiasm is like .05%(less than 1% at least I believe - could be wrong) of all the religions in the world, and yet that is considered a major religion, at least here in the US. Hinduism, Budhism, Christianity, Islam, other Polythiestic religions, would all or mostly all have to be taught in such a class.

That being the cass, all or some of the stories of the bible would not be a good idea or practical. Just how the religion originated, and some of its history.


In the school I just graduated, they taught some religion in history class - pure history. It was not taught as fact in the least. There was SOME Judiasm. Like all kids learn about that is Hanukah and Passover. And we have a huge Hollocaust unit in that school, so they learn some more in that. We were taught some things about Christianity. In NO WAY things from the bible. Like how it got started with no myths involved. No greatness about jesus or him being anyones savior. Just the facts. And about the Byzantine empire, how the religion spread, oppresion of the church, etc, etc. And we learned about Islam and such. We learned what the koran was, how the religion started ( not creation myths), how it spread, that box thingy, etc, etc. Religion can be taught without the myth and by not preaching any religion.

Now this topic has gone way off topic. But reply for the time being. I'm curious as to emplynx's response. Admins feel free to close if you wish. I hope this hasnt been closed while I was posting this!

[Rána Eressëa]

Originally posted by mirrille
That can also be done without much problem. That is what my high school did. A quick survey course in the major world religions. We went over Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Wicca, and a few others.

We're not allowed to talk about Wicca at my school - not even for school reports. It's considered a "bad" subject just like the KKK.

[Wayfarer]

Emplynx... I wish you the best of luck, and I hope you get something out of it... but I am not a fan of retreats, programs, and the like. I see too many people who think "I'm going to a retreat! Gawd, I'm a spiritual fellow!" And yet live anti-christian lives.

Incidentally... if evolution is in fact correct, It shouldn't be taught in shicence class, but in history. You are, after all, talking about what you think happened, and not something that you can predict and replicate.

On the subject of history... I'd like to know what exactly science did before evolutionary theory came about? It seems to me that science doesn't need evolution after all...

Ok, here's another question: Is evolution what you're discussing?

Here's the deal: living organisims change and adapt. No Christian I've met has a problem with that. Emplynx doesn't. I don't.

Given that organisms change (which we can empirically prove) Does it follow that there is a common ancestor? Or that organisms originally came about through abiogenesis? Or that the universe is spontaneously generated?

Also, given that organisms change, what is the observed mechanism, and could it produce those results?

Think about it.

Now, another question. Would having the kind of religious instruction that anduril describes be any better than the current system?

Because I have an inkling that anduril discussing the differences between cathlocism and protestantism would be about as useful as me talking about the differences between lamarkism and darwinism.

In an attempt to avioud being skewed, Ithink it's likely you'd succeed in being condescending. Which is a problem in it's own right.

Of course, you would have that problem no matter who taught the class.

[mirrille]

Originally posted by Rána Eressëa
We're not allowed to talk about Wicca at my school - not even for school reports. It's considered a "bad" subject just like the KKK.

I feel bad (condescending) saying it, so forgive me, but your school sounds very backward. I can't remember in my course if Wiccanism was one of the religions we talked about in class, or someone presented it as a project. I think it would have been a good example of those more "nature" based faiths (a nice contrast to more institutionalized, comparatively more rigid religions like Sikhism or Judaism) since it's one of the more well known. I think the project section was very good idea because everyone got to pick, and with 30 students, you get presented 30 different religions. Personally, I like Wiccanism. I don't practise it, but there's alot of good stuff there. I think teachers should be able to teach this stuff without too much bias. They are supposed to be professionals. I know this doesn't always happen, but we shouldn't make excuses for lousy teachers.

I hope emplynx has fun to. Retreats are fun because you get to socialize with alot of like-minded people and talk about things that interest you all. That's how I see it. But spiritually is found in the heart. No retreat can teach that. And that's were my view converges with Wayfarer. I'd still go, but just to meet people.
The last time my friend dragged me along on a youth group retreat, she announced halfway through that I hadn't gone to church in 6 years. In front of everyone, including the priest. Haha! She felt bad after for blowing my cover. I'm just a Christian on paper, these days. I've got my sacrements and the certificates to prove it, for all the good it does me.

[BeardofPants]

Posted by the insufferable one:
Incidentally... if evolution is in fact correct, It shouldn't be taught in shicence class, but in history ... <edited for space> Also, given that organisms change, what is the observed mechanism, and could it produce those results?

Do I hear buzzing?

[Rána Eressëa]

Originally posted by mirrille

I feel bad (condescending) saying it, so forgive me, but your school sounds very backward. I can't remember in my course if Wiccanism was one of the religions we talked about in class, or someone presented it as a project. I think it would have been a good example of those more "nature" based faiths (a nice contrast to more institutionalized, comparatively more rigid religions like Sikhism or Judaism) since it's one of the more well known. I think the project section was very good idea because everyone got to pick, and with 30 students, you get presented 30 different religions. Personally, I like Wiccanism. I don't practise it, but there's alot of good stuff there. I think teachers should be able to teach this stuff without too much bias. They are supposed to be professionals. I know this doesn't always happen, but we shouldn't make excuses for lousy teachers.

Don't feel bad about saying that - I completely agree. But since I live in the Church Belt of the South, you do get why they act like that, right? It's just plain ignorance and they refuse to admit it. People relate Wicca and even witchcraft with Satan. It's just very sad. If you don't wanna fail or be expelled - watch your mouth. That's how it works.

Which is why this creationism in schools won't work - because the south won't agree to let in all the other religions.

[Wayfarer]

But that's not entirely true either...

Last summer I was in a bible class led by a couple of Idi... er...freshman.. I mean, uh.. well...

Anyway... I ended up covering for them on several occasions, and we spoke a great deal about other religions. We talked alot about psuedo christian religions (JW's, LDS', CSP's, etc.).

But again, a lot of what I have to say about them are 'this is good, they have the right ideas here and here, but this doesn't work, and this other thing is just plain wrong.'

I don't know if I'm the exception that proves the rule, but I avidly study any other religion I can, from humanism to heathenism. I can learn from some, and a great many concepts are useful to me as a christian, but I've never had a problem with that.

[Rána Eressëa]

I never said all of them - it's just most of them.

[emplynx]

Wow, that was amazing. I heard from some excellent teachers!
One of the best parts was hearing from a Dr. Kurt Wise, a simply brilliant man!
He is a creation scientist who has his PhD in palaeontology from the one and only Professor Stephen Jay Gould!! He also has a masters in geology from University of Chicago.
This man has the best new approaches to Creation science that I have ever heard!! He is 100% against evolution-bashing, and 100% for offering a different explination.
He has a book coming out this fall, and if the books is even half as good as his teachings I dare everyone interested in Origins to read it.
This was the most amazing learning experience ever!!!

[Starr Polish]

We're not allowed to talk about Wicca at my school - not even for school reports. It's considered a "bad" subject just like the KKK.

It's kind of different in my school, but it's mostly student views. Even MENTION God, Jesus or Christianity (not proselytizing..or however you say it) to someone other than a close Christian friend will get you immediately attacked, usually by people that claim they hate prejudice and support all lifestyles. Someone mentions Wicca and you have to be absolutely understanding and tolerant (and, by the way, I have a Wiccan friend and a stepbrother who is exploring the religion). Being a Christian in my school gets you automatically labeled a bigot by all those except other Christians.

[emplynx]

Originally posted by Starr Polish
Being a Christian in my school gets you automatically labeled a bigot by all those except other Christians.

Starr Polish - That is extremely cool!
2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.