Orcs - absolute rubbish or what???

[Quazar]

Obviously you-all have never played AD&D. I remember many a time standing forth in my +4 Platemail and my +4 Longsword swatting baddies like Sauron at the start of the movie, great fun to mangle many an enemy without them having a ghost of a chance to hit you back. Also the orcs subscribe to the Kung Foo method of fighting. Blak you attack first, Kyat you go second, etc.

[Luthien Tinuviel]

Originally posted by Gerbil
So mean! The Balrog isn't hideous, nor is he evil.
He's just misunderstood.
It's his parents' fault.

Lol, yes, Elijah said something to that effect about the cave troll in a interview. He said something like, Oh, i feel so bad for that cave troll, it was confused, and probly treated poorly by the orcs. Poor little cave troll. Elijah Wood has such a cute personality...

[Lightice]

Originally posted by Gerbil

I think it would be extremely weak and unforgivable of Jackson to be contaminated by rubbish versions of what was essentially a Tolkien invention (yes goblins are not, but Orcs were, and indeed despite Legolas going 'goblins!' in Moria - we only ever see Orcs).
However, he's done almost as bad anyway - created a foe who simply is not worthy of respect or to be feared, which is what the film did for me. Orcs = cannon fodder, simple as that.

You know, orcs and goblins are synonymes. Read beginning of the Hobbit. It's told there.

[Gerbil]

Shan't, won't, can't make me.
Mainly cos I'm re-reading LotR right now

Thanks for the heads up. Will double check soon.

I presume the general idea was that in Middle Earth they were only ever known as Orcs and goblins was simply what they became known as in the future (eg I recall they are described thus in Book of Lost Tales 1 & 2?) which is actually our 'past'?

So surely Legolas saying 'goblins' could be considered a 'slip of the pen' from a historical point of view?

[Captain Stern]

As someone said here, you must remember that individuals of the fellowship such as Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli were 'killing machines' they were the cream of their races ( Legolas being great among the Sindar )

Also I don't thinik that the prowess of the orcs in the film were that far a cry from their counterparts in the books. However there have been mighty Orcs mentioned in Lord of the Rings. Didn't an Orc Chieftain defeat a Dwarf Lord (who's name escapes me) in single combat in an attempt on the part of the Dwarves to re-take Moria? It's in the Appendices somewhere.

I think that Orcs in great enough numbers were more than sufficient to combat men of the 3rd Age and maybe Sindar too.

However in the 1st Age Morgoth didn't 'rule Beleriand' by simply issuing Orcs out to fight the Noldor and the Edain. It says in 'Of the Return of the Noldor' in 'The Silmarillion':

"But thereafter there was peace for many years, and no open assault from Angband, for Morgoth perceived now that the Orcs unaided were no match for the Noldor; and he sought in his heart for new counsel."

Cue Glaurung, Dragons, Werewolves, Corrupted Maiar, Evil Men e.t.c

[Foul_Dwimmerlaik]

Azog, the Orc Cheiftan of Moria, killed Thorin's g-father Thror and desecrated his corpse, an action that precipatated the battle in which Azog killed Nain and Dain II killed Azog. Azog's son Bolg I believe died (possibly killed by Thorin) in the Battle of Five Armies (though I haven't read the Hobbit since I was little).

Just for fun, list the "name" characters killed by orcs or goblins:

Thror
Nain
Isildur
Theoden? (not sure who shot Snowmane)
Not sure about members of Thorin's party

[Foul_Dwimmerlaik]

...can't forget Boromir!

[Pailan]

I thought the way the orcs were portrayed was to slimey and wet, IMHO. I always felt they should've been looking more like gargoyles but with thick hides, almost scale like. In the movie they were always leaking body fluids and when they marched it sounded more like mud flopping. But nevertheless they were suitably evil and annoying.

[Gerbil]

Cue Glaurung, Dragons, Werewolves, Corrupted Maiar, Evil Men e.t.c

Yes but Orcs were still his staple stocking filler so to speak.

[ragamuffin92]

Obviously, orcs = goblins. I got the impression that the word "goblin" was used almost exclusively in "The Hobbit" because kids were familiar with the term. They couldn't have been great fighters, generally, because throughout the books, small numbers of our heroes could drive off much larger numbers of orcs.
Some additional orc victims:
Balin, Ori, and Oin (In Moria)
Thorin Oakenshield (most likely by goblins--the book didn't say)

King Dain, from Erebor & King Brand from Dale (I can't find confirmation that it was orcs, but pretty likely.

Elrond's wife Celebrian, although she wasn't killed by Orcs, was tortured by them, which destroyed her desire to remain in Middle-earth, so she left for the Grey Havens before her time.

[Agburanar]

Tolkien preffered Orcs because they didn't conjour up an image of little people with pointy hats sitting on taodstools, and what does PJ give us?...

Only joking, but they were pretty rubbish.

What happened to the Uruk-hai's S runes on their helmets?
Why weren't the orcs BLACK like they're supposed to be?
I liked the Moria orc's armour but they're supposed to have Scimitars, not vaguely pointy bits of metal!
The Mordor orcs were weak and rubbish, but you don't see much of them so that's ok as long as they're better later.
They had TOES.

[Gerbil]

I don't think it's so much that Tolkien Orcs were bad fighters as such, simply that they were incredibly cowardly. It wouldn't take much of a resistance to send them scuttling back to their caves.
In the film, they are both rubbish and cowardly
Apart from the Uruk-hai, who are just rubbish.
Apart from the leader of the Uruk-hai, who is neither.

[CardenIAntauraNauco]

Obviously.. one persons interpretaion of what an orc looks like will be different than anothers. To say, they didn't look like orcs is to say: they didn't look like my perception of the orcs. If you don't like something because it differs from how you imagined it. Then I would suggest not watching movies based on books. FOTR the movie is the interpretation of Peter Jackson. There is obviously going to be conflicts between your sperate interpretations.

The question to ask is "Did they look like a possible rendition of the orcs?" They very much did. Whether they fit your opinions of the orcs appearances is immaterial to whether or not they were "rubbish".

[Gerbil]

To whom was that reply aimed?
If it was to me then I think you've missed my point.
It's not how they look that bothers me, it's how they act.

[Ñólendil]

Agburanar, Tolkien said that Orcs are generally sallow. It seems to be simply the Uruks that were swarthy.

[CardenIAntauraNauco]

You said they were "cowardly and rubbish" "cowardly" seemingly refers to their actions and "rubbish" to their appearances and general behavior.

I cannot think of any part of LOTR that suggest the orcs have any defined "general behavior". The lack of such makes it just as much an interpretation problem as appearance

If you indeed mean their actions tell me where in the book they act differently than the orcs as portrayed in the movie. It will then be easier to see if Tolkien's orcs and Jackson's orcs are the same creatures.

To whom was that reply aimed?

It wasn't aimed persay, it was simply meant to be assimilated into the discussion not as an attack but as a thought to consider. I most certainly did not mean to attack you gerbil.

[Gerbil]

Orcs in Middle Earth are certainly more of a risk than the 'run into a held-out arrow' kind of way they are portrayed in the film.

Simply put, in the film they are not a danger, except possibly to themselves, since chances are every time they go to scratch their eyes they poke them out having forgotten they are holding a sword.

In the film, they are VERY weak. In the books, they aren't anything too hot generally, but they are certainly a bit more clued up generally. Apart from being cowards, which is true throughout.

They simply don't know how to fight in the film. Apart from leader of the Uruk-hais. Which is not how Tolkien envisaged them.

[CardenIAntauraNauco]

I believe legolas stabbed the orc that charged him, he didnt just run into it. The second paragraph of your post is obviously an exaggeration and you have yet to give me a reason the orcs are different than the books portrayal.

They are not that powerful in the book, you have stated that. If they were powerful in the book the party would have no chance whatsoever.

Is their a circumstance in the book or the movie that shows the orcs to be significantly stronger or weaker respectively?

[ragamuffin92]

I'm curious to know how the people who don't like the way orcs' ability as warriors, etc, was depicted in the film would shoot the same scenes.

In the books, the good guys were attacked by overwhelming numbers of orcs many times without getting killed. In reality, could a little guy with an axe or a tall nature-boy with a bow and arrow defend himself for long against large numbers of disciplined fighters? Nope!!

I always got the impression from the books that the orcs were an undisciplined, disunified and unruly bunch whose main goal in life was to save their own skins. They fought those battles rather than incur the wrath of Sauron or Saruman. The Uruk-hai may have been much better fighters, but how many did Boromir kill before they finally killed him?

[Gerbil]

I'm sure if someone payed me a million dollars to come up with a screenplay of the fights, I could do a decent job.

I'm sorry, but however you look at it, running into a held out arrow does not rate as 'fighting ability' at all.