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#21 | |
Hobbit
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 24
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Quote:
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Theres a lesson here... its better to watch stuff then to do stuff - Homer Simpson |
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#22 | |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
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Quote:
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
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#23 | |
Sapling
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 5
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![]() About the creatures that Sauron may not know about, the following quote might be helpful (from the Silmarillion): "For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into the darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valarauko, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror." So that was in the time of Morgorth. Tolkein only mentions the Balrogs, but there could be Maiar who turned out worse than them and Sauron never knew of them ...
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"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends ..." |
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#24 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: California
Posts: 60,865
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Gandalf, I was being sarcastic. That Tom is Aulë or Tulkas or a Vala at all is one of the more absurd theories I've heard. Even besides Tolkien's comment that he was an aborigine and the strong implication his life began in Arda, there's common sense. Tom Bombadil cannot be two people at once. There are the Valar outside the Circles of the World in the Unseen, and there's Tom in Middle-earth. You can't be both. I refuse to believe that the Maker of the Dwarf-fathers or the Champion of the Valar was living by the Withywindle. Tom is not Aule or Tulkas anymore then he is Gimli or Éomer, Goldberry isn't Yavanna or Nessa anymore then she is Galadriel or Éowyn. It makes no sense whatsoever.
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Falmon -- Dylan |
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#25 |
Sapling
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 5
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![]() Well thats fair enough - I said there are lots of opinions!
![]() I've only read 2 or 3 essays on the topic, so I dont know and I'm not a Tolkein scholar of any level... I read the article at http://www.phil.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html and thought it was quite good. ![]()
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"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends ..." |
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#26 |
EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED
DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Littleton, CO
Posts: 1,176
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As the "head" of my order, the
EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO [thanks for the "promotion", O Site Gods!], "bropous the plaid", I'll wade in on the whole "Bombadil as Aule/Tulkas" debate. Quite simply, it may be rumored, but has no basis in the witings of Tolkien. To tell you the thruth, the idea of either Aule or Tuklas telling ANYONE "don't crush my lillies!" just don't fit, especially for Tulkas! No, Bombadil is a separate being, not Elf, nor Man, nor Ent, nor Hobbit. He is separate, "the Eldest and Fatherless", and is the oldest being in Middle-Earth, but then again, here is the "inconsitency" Tolkien himself purposely left in to see if we were paying attention. Tolkien says later in the books that it is Fangorn/Treebeard who is "oldest of living beings walking under the Sun". I thought for a moment that Bombadil had awakened in the twilight, and that Treebeard had awakened at the rising of the New Sun. However, even the Elves awoke prior to the Sun. Theory dashed. It's just an inconsistency. And we ARE paying attention, O Master! Also, Gandalf the Grey, as Morgoth/Melkor's chief lieutenant, Sauron/Gorthaur the Cruel knew ALL of Morgoth's servants, and none were older than he nor unknown to him. Hey may have FORGOTTEN about them, but he knew them at least back i nthe First Age. And, it is impossible to reconcile LotR and the Silmarillion on this issue. Another inconsistency.
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"...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. |
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#27 |
EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED
DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Littleton, CO
Posts: 1,176
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Not Only...But Also...
When the Ainur "went into the World", they found it wasn't even in existence, they were only shown a VISION of the world to come. They had to create it themselves. Therefore, no thing IN or ON the Earth could be older than any Valar or Maiar. A creation cannot be "older" than the creator.
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"...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. |
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Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
"Some things in this world are older than Sauron..." = ? | Peter_20 | Lord of the Rings Books | 12 | 09-02-2007 08:51 PM |
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Not bad for an older movie :) | Brimvalir | Entertainment Forum | 7 | 04-14-2002 10:19 PM |
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