physical description of elves?

[Michael Martinez]

Idril Celebrindal also had golden hair. She was Turgon's daughter, but her mother was Elenwe of the Vanyar.

Peter's Elves have pointy ears and there is nothing can be done about that. But though I wondered (along with many other people) why there were so many blond-haired Elves in the movie, I have decided that the blond hair was intended to distinguish between Wood Elves and the dark-haired High Elves. There is, in fact, a passage in The Fellowship of the Ring where a blond-haired Wood Elf is seen. And since the Elvenking of The Hobbit is golden-haired, it may have seemed reasonable to Peter's people -- who had to devise motifs to help the audience distinguish between Elven groups -- to make all Wood Elves blond-haired (except for Celeborn, who seems to have a mixture of dark and blond hair, according to a photograph in the official movie guide -- though I thought his hair had a silvery appearance when I saw the movie).

[afro-elf]

I finished my vacation and at the same time i had to board the plane ,the midnight showing of LOTR began.

I have yet to see the movie BUT it seemed to me in the preview that the elves at elrond's council were blonde also


it this true?

[Michael Martinez]

Some of the Elves are blond-haired, and some are dark-haired. Presumably the dark-haired Elves are from Rivendell, since Legolas arrives with at least a couple of companions.

[afro-elf]

i'm not sure it was changed for the movie or it was just my own thinking

i always thought legolas, gimli and gloin came alone which i thought was dangerous or at least odd

BUT thanks to your reply i guess that they could have had companions BUT since the aforementioned characters are the important ones their companions need not have been mentioned.

[Michael Martinez]

In the book, Gimli arrived with his father Gloin. I don't recall if any other Dwarves were present. It is never stated whether Legolas had companions.

[Ñólendil]

No dwarves were present at the Council of Elrond, except Glóin and Gimli. I didn't even think about the possibility that more may have come to Rivendell. It would make sense. I've always thought it's a bit strange that Legolas goes with the Fellowship, leaving no one to go back to the Woodland Realm to give the Wood-elves tidings. But now I suppose it's perfectly possible that Legolas was not the only one sent. Perhaps he was the only one invited to the Council because of his nobility.

[Santee]

He may be the only one mentioned by name, but a contingent of Elves came from the kingdom in Mirkwood. That was the impression I got from reading that passage...

[Michael Martinez]

I suspect Legolas could have traveled far on his own, but probably would have had some companions for the road. The Elves at the council are not all named, but all the unnamed Elves appear to be from Elrond's household. Of the named Elves, only Galdor of the Havens and Legolas appear to come from beyond Rivendell. The other named Elves are Elrond, Glorfindel, and Erestor.

I suspect that Gloin and Gimli would also have had other companions. But the Council was obviously intended only for the most important people present. Of the Hobbits, only Bilbo and Frodo were actually invited. Sam snuck in, and Merry and Pippin were left out. So, I think it's reasonable to guess that there were Elves from Mirkwood and Dwarves from the Lonely Mountain who had accompanied their lords but who did not attend the Council. They were probbaly sent back to their lands as soon as possible to report to their respective kings on at least part of what the Council decided.

[emplynx]

Yeah. What he said!
That was a really good answer Michael.

[afro-elf]

I think this was post by samwise gamgee, BUT I could be wrong.




I wonder if the following quote might throw some light on the elf/man strength comparison in general and Legolas' abilities in particular
"there was nothing filmy or transparent about the heroic or majestic Eldar of the Third Age of Middle-earth. Long afterwards, my father (Cristopher Tolkien's referring to Ronald - E.G.) would write, in a wrathful comment on a "pretty" or "ladylike" pictorial rendering of Legolas:
He was tall as a young tree, lithe, immensely strong, able swiftly to draw a great war-bow and shoot down a Nazgl, endowed with the tremendous vitality of Elvish bodies, so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rock and through snow, the most tireless of all the Fellowship."
The Book of Lost Tales 2, "The History of Eriol or Aelfwine"

[TinuvielChild]

Originally posted by Lightice


Currently I'm more interested of old elves, celtic ones.
Seelie and unseelie courts, Arcadia, the elf-country and all that
Those elves have much to do with nature-spirits, dryads, fairies, satyrs and even trolls. All they are elves, sort of.

I'm really into the seleighe and unseleighe courts stuff, ever read mercedes lackey's serrated edge series? anyway yeah, everyone has their own image of elves, but somehow they all seem to be tall, blond, and pointy-eared...oh well.

[Findegil]

Well, since all the experts had discarded the passages describing the Elves as having pointed ears, I should join this discussion and break a lance for pointed ears. But I won't do so.

I could simply go in and say: Where is the Tolkien-text that says explicitly that they hadn't pointed ears? So well as we have to sources for Tolkien referring to pointed ears, we should think in that way.

At first: I don't think they had ears like Mr. Spok. That's too much pointed in my few, because of all the stuff of distinguishing elves and man by their eye rather than their bodily shape. So I think there ears were only slightly more pointed then usual for men. To be sure if you go out with open eyes, you can find some man out their that had ears that you can probably describe as leave shaped or pointed. It isn't normal but you can find it. I would think in Elvkind it was otherwise: You would find most elves had slightly pointed ears, but since they were as different from individual as we are you would have found some that had round ears. So ears were not a really good point to distinguish Elves and Man.

Now for the texts:
If you come up with Elves being biological the some as men, and put that to count for ears, so that would also rule out the distinguishing by the eyes since that's also part of the biologic-shape. So you can't take that statement too strictly. And to give an example for that: If you ask some biologist they will tell you that all kind of man are biological are the same, but as anybody knows you can distinguish the kinds.
Okay, the "leave shaped ears" statement is old. But is that ruling it out? If so than were will you draw the line? I know that is a big question and can't be easily answered, but as long as you don't explain way do you don't take it you had to live with my taking it into account.
And now the letter. Well it is right that the addressed people couldn't have known Tolkiens elves, but he had learnt since Gobblinfeet. I think he wouldn't have used any "picture" for the elves that didn't agree with his own, especial because the addressed people were to publish The Hobbit and their are elves out of Middle-Earth in it. So he wouldn't have told them some thing about mediaeval elves with pointed ears only to explain them in his next letter that he didn't meant his own creatures.


Regards
Findegil

P.S.: Since I asked for some thing like that, here a short cut of what is my few on the source-texts (a longer one would go beyond the scope of this discussion):
At first, I think we all agree that we can't look for Middle-Earth as Tolkien imagined it, we can only search for Middle-Earth as he portrayed it in his texts.
And than I think that statements in Tolkien-text are only ruled out by more weightily statements of Tolkien. So what is weighty? A Text published by JRR Tolkien is most weighty. The later it is published the weightier it is. Than we come up with all the posthumous stuff. There I would say the later it was written the weightier it is. But all that count not for complete texts but for statements. And in a way you had to lock also to the imagined stages of authors and their trustworthiness.

Sorry for all that misspelling. (It was very late here in Europe.) Hope it is more readable now.

[TinuvielChild]

Findegil: run spell check!

[Elvellon]

I think I remember that Christopher Tolkien once wrote that elves do not have pointed ears, but I can’t remember where. Does anyone knows were this statement is?

[Ñólendil]

If he ever said it, I have not heard mention of it before.

[Willow Oran]

Out of curiosity, where does it say that Thranduil has blond hair? I've heard several people mention that but I can't find it anywhere in the books I've been able to get ahold of.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Its in the Hobbit, where he is always called "The Elven King". His name Thrandruil is not used in that book.

[cian]

Originally posted by Ñólendil Elves are said to have pointed ears in a somewhat illegible note in The Etymologies, published in The Lost Road and Other Writings. That text belongs to the old mythology and The Book of Lost Tales.

Well granted you said 'somewhat' but the note seems legible enough, though one word appears in brackets. It reads:

'LAS-1 (...) (Some think this is related to the next and *lassé 'ear'. The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than [?human].)'

The word 'human' is in question, and Christopher Tolkien notes:

'A question mark standing within such brackets indicates doubt as to the correctness of my reading, but in other cases is original. Where I have found words totally illegible or can do no better than a guess (a very small proportion of the whole, in fact) I have usually omitted them silently, and so also with scattered jottings where no meaning is attached to forms, or where no clear connections are given.' ~CT

So CT 'indicates doubt' as to his reading of the word 'human' but he evidently did not find it totally illegible, and it's not a mere 'guess' or he probably would have (as at least was usual) omitted it silently. In any case, what word fits well here? what is the most likely thing Tolkien was comparing 'Quendian ears' to? and which word looks enough like 'human' for CT to, at least, include it in brackets.

As to your statement that Etymologies belongs to 'the old mythology and the book of Lost Tales' ... Etymologies generally reflects the linguistic situation envisaged in the Lhammas and, for example, the 'Celtic inspired' language represented within is 'Noldorin' at least, not early 'Gnomish'.

Yes Etymologies is basically a 'pre-LOTR document'. Additional entries can be found, albeit 'hasty' and not fully explained, from the earlier part of LOTR itself (generally before the breaking of the Fellowship). Christopher Tolkien notes that his father made 'desultory' entries into Etymologies for two or three years as new names emerged in The Lord Of The Rings, and:

"Clear cases from later in LOTR do occur (so Palantir under PAL and TIR, Dolbaran under BARÁN), but they are very few." ~CT

Care must be taken with Etymologies. Tolkien apparently had it 'available' as a document and made entries into it at certain points during the (mostly early) writing of LOTR -- that is a 'timing' reference however -- the linguistic 'scenario' of Etym is indeed pre-LOTR.
_____

The question of whether words, arguably derived from stems LAS-1 and LAS-2, are used in LOTR as published may also be of interest. Elvish 'leaf-words' that arguably derive from stem LAS(1) can be found in LOTR, and according to language expert David Salo (unless he's revised his conclusion since, though I'm not aware of such) the word lasto 'listen' for example, is to be considered as deriving from stem LAS(2). It might be noted that according to Ardalambion author Helge Fauskanger JRRT likely added a further stem *S-LAS into the mix, 'in update', from which lhaw is currently theoried to derive ~ Amon Lhaw 'Hill of Hearing'.

Keeping in mind that in Etymologies: stem LAS-1 generally produces 'leaf-words', stem LAS-2 generally 'listen-words', and noting again the parenthetical note from Tolkien on Quendian ears.

No I can't (and am not trying to) prove that Tolkien would have (re)written the same or similar parenthetical note (as quoted above) as a 'mythic detail' related to the appearance in LOTR of such forms as lasto 'listen' and lassi 'leaves'. Seems quite 'Tolkien-ish' to me if he had -- that is, I think JRRT the philologist would enjoy dealing with such a 'detail' in this manner, though that is pure opinion on my part of course. To speculate, perhaps a similar note maybe would have found its way into the Appendices? we know that Tolkien was rushed with them anyway.

In any case I think Etymologies is quite an 'interesting' (at least) document with regards the 'ear-question'

¤

[afro-elf]

here is some good info on elves



http://mux.net/~bele/elves.html

[Elvellyn]

Thanks for the info afro-elf