Scientific Classification of Middle Earth Races

[Wayfarer]

Gollum was a Hobbit, yes. He was just of an ancient breed of Stoor.

I'm really not sure how to put it any simpler, afro elf.

As far as feathers=scales, that's part of the whole birds=reptiles/dinosaurs thing.

It's quite amusing.

For Example

Ask your average paleontologist who is familiar with the phylogeny of vertebrates and they will probably tell you that yes, birds (avians) are dinosaurs. Using proper terminology, birds are avian dinosaurs; other dinosaurs are non-avian dinosaurs, and (strange as it may sound) birds are technically considered reptiles.

And specifically on feathers:

Like all other reptiles, birds have scales (feathers are produced by tissues similar to those that produce scales, and birds have scales on their feet).

Ok... now... back to what I was saying.

If you take three different indicators (shape, construction, and chemical composition) you get three different relationships.

So it's really not feasable to attempt to categorize things by supposed relationships.

At least, not on the scale you're suggesting.

[afro-elf]

i'm to worn to reply

i think classification works

a dog is a dog even if of a different breed

a so is an elf

[Eru]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
It's a matter of heated debate.
The Silmarillion understandably uses the primitive idea (which I am in love with), and so the Orcs in that book are made by Melkor from Elves.

I agree and am also in love with this, the original not primitive idea, that orcs were made by Melkor from Elves:

"Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar ... This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Iluvatar."

Wayfarer, I am confused. You say that Elves, Men, Orcs and hobbits are all 'human'. Do you mean 'humanoid' and if not, where is this written? However, I agree with you that to try and scientifically classify the races of Middle-earth in the same way we classify our own species on Earth, is indeed utter bull. Sorry to all those who have done such a good job with it.

**Edited because it is late and, as usual, I can't spell.**

[afro-elf]

really you could say that any thread on entmoot is utter bull

[Pailan]

So then how about trolls who are said to be made in imitation of Dwarves?

Animalia - Chordata - Mammalia - Primata - Hominidae - Khazado - Trolli

Does that work for anyone?

[afro-elf]

Ents my friend not Dwarves.

[Pailan]

I wonder how I got the two mixed up? Alas I need more coffee. so then to do trolls how about this...

Animalia - Chordata - Mammalia - Primata - Hominidae - Ento - Trolli

This thinking has Ents doing the mamal/primate thing. But if trolls are from stone then what?

[Ñólendil]

You know, I believe Tolkien's final word on Trolls was that they were corruptions of a primitive form of Man.

One earlier note has their bodies being made from stone and filled with Orcish spirits.

The bit about Ents and Trolls has far as I remember only comes from Treebeard, who only says that Trolls were made in mockery of Ents, not that they were made from Ents.

You really haven't got a chance of classifying Trolls.

[Wayfarer]

"Wayfarer, I am confused. You say that Elves, Men, Orcs and hobbits are all 'human'. Do you mean 'humanoid' and if not, where is this written? However, I agree with you that to try and scientifically classify the races of Middle-earth in the same way we classify our own species on Earth, is indeed utter bull. Sorry to all those who have done such a good job with it."

No... actually, 'humanoid' would have to include dwarves, trolls, and ent's as well.

They are all, to some extent, the same species. Here we have two races that werre created along the same specefications, so to speak, and teh other two are derivitives of those two. If any of the other three were to be classified today, they would be considered mostly human, if somewhat odd in certain respects.


And, I must say, I consider all classification of this type to be fudged.

Sure, as Afro Elf says, a dog is a dog, and yeah, a cat is a cat. The BS factor comes in when we go from there to... hmmm... since they're both got X, X, and X in common, let's stick them into the same phylum and genus, and call it good.

Seeing as even a child can tell a cat from a dog, why don't we just accept that they're different, and move on to something less tedious?

[afro-elf]

Dude

Loins, panthers, ocelots, street cat and sabre tooth tigers are all cats.

And they are all mammals.

So whats the problem ? A girl in biology class that left you lovelorn liked classifying you as a Entmootius Tolkieno Nerdus Geeko?

[Ñólendil]

*laughs at the Insufferable*

[Elanor]

Here is my very subjective and inaccurate classification, according to Tolkien's terms like kelvar and olvar, instead of "scientific" terms from our culture like animalia, etc. I have included some examples when I felt like it. My source material consists only of Hob, LotR, some Lost Tales, and Sil, so I don't know about the more obscure things, if there are any. I'm sure I left lots of things out or put them in the wrong places and I'm equally sure that you will correct me! Just be nice, ok? I put some things in multiple places where I figured it was possible they might belong. These classification things are pretty ambiguous, after all, but interesting to think about.

Eru, Iluvatar
Ainur: Melkor
|___Valar: Manwe
|___Maiar: Melian
|___|___Istari: Gandalf
|___|___Balrogs, etc.

Ungoliant, whatever she is
___Giant Spiders
Tom Bombadil, whatever he is

Creations (made by Iluvatar or Ainur)
|___kelvar (living things that move)
|___|___Children of Iluvatar
|___|___|___Elves (Quendi)
|___|___|___|___Eldar
|___|___|___|___|___Vanyar (Calaquendi): Ingwe
|___|___|___|___|___Noldor (Calaquendi): Feanor |___|___|___|___|___Teleri
|___|___|___|___|___|___Calaquendi: Elwe (Thingol), Olwe
|___|___|___|___|___|___Sindar (Moriquendi, Umanyar): Celeborn
|___|___|___|___|___|___Nandor (Moriquendi, Umanyar): Lenwe
|___|___|___|___|___|___|___Laiquendi: Denethor
|___|___|___|___Avari (Moriquendi)
|___|___|___|___Orcs (corrupted)
|___|___|___Men (Atani, Edain, etc.)
|___|___|___|___First Elf-friends: Beor, Barahir, Beren
|___|___|___|___Beornings (one wonders how they came to be..maybe someone here knows?)
|___|___|___|___Numenoreans & descendents: Elros, Elendil, Aragorn
|___|___|___|___Western men: Rohirrim, Lake men, Bree men, most Gondorians
|___|___|___|___Southerners: Harad, etc.
|___|___|___|___Easterners: Rhun, etc.
|___|___|___|___Hobbits
|___|___|___|___|___Fallohides: Marcho and Blanco
|___|___|___|___|___Stoors: Gollum
|___|___|___|___|___Harfoots
|___|___|___|___|___Modern Hobbits (parts in different proportions of each type): Frodo, Pippin, etc.
|___|___|___|___Trolls (corrupted)?
|___|___|___Half-Elven (and other mixes involving Elves)
|___|___Dwarves (made by Aule)
|___|___Eagles (made by Manwe)?
|___|___Corruptions/Mockeries/Bad Things (Melkor/Sauron/Saruman)
|___|___|___Orcs: Shagrat, Gorbag
|___|___|___|___variations (Mordor, Mountain, Isengard, etc.)
|___|___|___|___Uruk-Hai (part men)
|___|___|___Trolls: William, Bert, Tom
|___|___|___|___variations (Cave, Mountain, etc.)
|___|___|___Dragons: Glaurung, Smaug
|___|___|___Wargs, werewolves: Carcharoth
|___|___|___Flying Nazgul Steeds, whatever they are
|___|___|___Rings (the ones that have minds of their own)
|___|___Animals
|___|___|___Speaking birds (Eagles? thrushes, ravens)
|___|___|___Hounds: Huan
|___|___|___Cats
|___|___|___Beornings?
|___|___|___Nonspeaking (except to those who know how to talk to them) Animals: Oliphaunts, Shadowfax, Fatty Lumpkin
|___|___Others
|___|___|___Earth/water spirits
|___|___|___Unknown creatures
|___olvar (growing things with roots in the earth; made by Yavanna)
|___|___The Two Trees (Varda helped, right?)
|___|___|___Their descendents
|___|___Ents: Treebeard
|___|___|___Entwives
|___|___|___Huorns
|___|___|___Trolls (corrupted)?
|___|___Old Man Willow, whatever he is
|___|___Nonspeaking (except to those who know how to talk to them ) Plants: athelas

Alternative classification
|___Free Peoples
|___|___Elves
|___|___Men
|___|___Dwarves
|___|___Ents
|___|___Hobbits
|___Not free peoples
|___|___Orcs
|___|___Trolls
|___|___Men

[afro-elf]

WOW

[emplynx]

Wow. That was Amazing. I believe that Ungoliant and Gwaihir were both Maiar though.

[Lightice]

Hmm...Istari were maiar, though. There's hints and at least one actual mention about this.
And I think, that Ungoliant was maia as well, or something else really powerful and peculiar. It could take power of good, and then turn it evil inside her. It had gotten so much energy from Trees and other treasures of Valinor, that it could threaten Morgoth himself. I might believe, that if balrogs wouldn't had come, Ungoliant might had been becomed most powerful creature in face of Arda, and it would had propably aten most of it before getting slayed by Valar, and propably aten few of them as well.

I don't think, that Gwahir was maia. If I remember correctly, some of the Valar were given their "own species". Aulë got dwarves he had made, and then Manwe and Yvanna wanted their own too, and they got ents and giant eagles.

[Elanor]

I can't believe I didn't list Oliphaunts. I guess they would be under nonspeaking animals but you never know... So maybe Eagles should be in their own catagory under kelvar, described "made by Manwe", and Ungoliant under maiar. But where should the other giant spiders be classified? Maybe they're just Other. There are always anomalies.

[Ñólendil]

Impressive! I used to love making charts like that too.

There is a great deal more to list. There's so many Races of people out there, Tolkien didn't write about them all. Another problem you'll run into is the time period, the divisions of Elves looks different in the Third Age than it does in the Star Ages.

Galadriel is not a good example for the Noldor, as she was only 25% percent Noldorin, she was also 50% Telerin and 25% Vanyarin. Where Orcs come from is a matter of debate. Tolkien's final idea was that they were corrupted Men, that they were Elves is the older idea. Which you should accept is your choice.

Tolkien said late in his life, or anyway he said that it was very likely that Thorondor was actually an incarnated Maia. As Gwaihir's descended from him, he would have Maian blood.

A while back I tried to do something like this, and I sought out the aid of Michael Martinez. He was kind enough to write me a sort of mini essay on the Races of Men, and with the information and my system of classification I made my list. The results can be found here. Please keep in mind that many of the name meanings I provided there are entirely bogus. The Orkish sub-divisions were made and don't come from Tolkien (except the Uruk-hai).

[Wayfarer]

Is that web site still up, Dylan?

Wow... Those were the days, eh?

[bropous]

Didn't Tolkien break it up this way:

Children of Iluvatar:
1. Elves
2. Men [including hobbits] "Letters", page 158, bottom note

Children of Aule:
Dwarves

Separate Categories:
Ents
Dragons
Pterodactyl-like creatures flown by Nazgul
Spawn of Ungoliant [Giant Spiders]

"Warped [Corrupted] Persons"
1. Orcs [from Elves]
2. Trolls [from Ents]
3. Balrogs [from Maiar]

Kinda close? I know there are others....

[Ñólendil]

Yeah, they sure were Shannon. Though, I am a bit relieved they're gone, in a way. Too much stress. It's much easier here.

Bropous the origins of Trolls and Elves I think is just to controversial to say for certain. Balrogs were demons, fallen Maiar (I know you know that, I'm just making a point). If they're listed along side Trolls and Orcs then Sauron and Saruman should be with them at least. I would lump them all into the 'Maiar' category of 'Ainur', whether they Fell or not, all were at one time Angelic, and 'good'.