SO fordo and sam - Page 2

webwizard333 · 10-08-2001, 09:56 AM

I agree with Inoldonil. And look at all the replys in this topic, she knows how to get a conversation going. But, I don't think that any of the male characters were "romantically involved".

Sakata · 10-08-2001, 06:56 PM

sorry, but I have little tolerance for immaturity

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-08-2001, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sakata
sorry, but I have little tolerance for immaturity

There isn't much maturity involved when you're only twelve. I think she is mistaken about these characters sexuality or Tolkien's depiction of them, but at least she has attempted to read a quality book, and to define it in her view. That is more then alot of kids do today.

Ñólendil · 10-08-2001, 11:55 PM

I thought Play Girl's post was humorous, and typical for coming from an 18 year old (so her profile makes her, not twelve). I do not use the word 'typical' in a bad way.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-09-2001, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Inoldonil
I thought Play Girl's post was humorous, and typical for coming from an 18 year old (so her profile makes her, not twelve). I do not use the word 'typical' in a bad way.

I may have her age confused with another new kid on the board.

Varda · 10-09-2001, 01:52 AM

I don't think I ever got the innuendo upon first reading, but then I tend not to think that way. Also, I was sort of raised on the animated versions from an age when I didn't even know there was such a thing as homosexuality. But I can see where someone would get that I guess. I also don't think it's likely due to Tolkien's being Christian. Also, to anyone who thinks the concept is immature... that kind of thinking permeates a lot of modern movies, tv shows and other parts of our culture. Tolkien was a product of his culture, and Play Girl is a product of hers.

Varda · 10-09-2001, 02:04 AM

and it shows her as 16 (bdate 1984)

Strange-Looking Lurker · 10-09-2001, 12:09 PM

*decides to take a novel aproach*

PlayGirl, how old are you?

Although I don't know for sure what Tolkiens thoughts on homosexuality where, I think we can safely assume that the chances make him opposed to it. Several people have chalenged others (hey, I'm too lazy to go back and look at screen names!) to show them that Tolkien was opposed to homosexuality. But they have not been able to show anything that shows he thought of homosexuals in a good light. But, given that he beleived in the Bible, and that Romans 1 makes clear what the Bible says about homosexuals, I would say that Tolkien was not likely to put homosexuals characters in the role of his main characters.

As for what you should read next, by all means read the Sim! It's harder to read than LOTR because it's more of a history book than a story, but it is VERY interesting! LOTR will mean alot more the next time you read it too.

Darth Tater · 10-09-2001, 12:45 PM

My thoughts on Tolkien's views regarding homosexuality are based on Carpenter's authorized biography. YOu should read it Inoldonil, it's quite good. Also, that quote is from the Bible! Where have you been?

Kirinki54 · 10-09-2001, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Play Girl
I'm glad Sam and Rosie got it together.
Play Girl

Yes, in light of the worthy couple actually having thirteen kids, I think we can safely assume that Sam at least had a lot of straight arrows in his quiver.

Sakata · 10-09-2001, 05:57 PM

okay, 12 years old, I would understand her immaturaty. 16? well I considering I am only 15 I would expect better.

Ñólendil · 10-09-2001, 10:45 PM

Varda, I don't think it's likely because the notion is ridiculous based on so many things (though Play Girl's post made me laugh in a good way and I think you are all riled up about nothing). As for Tolkien not making his characters gay because he was a Christian, I can only say that there are gay Christians, and Christians who do not believe gays are going to Hell (not to mention Christians that do not believe in a literal Hell anyway). I am in fact a Christian who believes God loves everyone, whether you're straight, gay, black, white, blue or something else (nor do I think less of you if you are an agnostic or an Atheist, please don't think I'm trying to exclude or attack anyone with this controversial post). Call me crazy.

Perhaps I should also say that I don't doubt there are gay people who visit this board frequently. I do not want them to be reminded here that they are of an oppressed minority. Elsewhere there is evidence enough, unfortunately.

Actually (I just read the lurker's post) I am afraid this could turn into a religious debate (read: flame war), and I don't want to contribute to that. Let's not get into the Bible, what it says and how we should interpret it for our own sake.

Quote:

My thoughts on Tolkien's views regarding homosexuality are based on Carpenter's authorized biography.

I actually have read a bit of that. A bit. In that bit it said that Tolkien claimed not to have heard of the word 'homosexuality' as a young teenager. I don't recall any other passage that talked about Tolkien's views regarding homosexuality. I assume you refer again to his dislike of bright colours and his 'disappointment at seeing Oxford's faculty turn more liberal and (he assumed at least) homosexual towards the end of his life.' Assuming Tolkien didn't like gays because he didn't wear extravagantly bright clothing is ridiculous. Also I must ask again: 'where's this about JRR Tolkien's dislike of Oxford 'turning homosexual'?' If you bring up a quote of Tolkien's which speaks of his dislike of Oxford turning homosexual (or do you think 'liberal' = 'homosexual'?), I'll end my effort to show we don't know what his stance towards homosexuality was (whether he lived a while ago, was straight, Catholic or not).[/long sentence]

People, Play Girl is a teenager, and a normal one. A normal teenager who was bringing up an honest subject. She felt the story implied Sam and Frodo were gay, she was being funny about it (I thought), we all know they're not, it doesn't matter, end of story. Let's not tear eachother's heads off. I almost did just now, before I caught myself.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-10-2001, 12:14 AM

It's not a big deal.

Strange-Looking Lurker · 10-10-2001, 01:15 PM

"As for Tolkien not making his characters gay because he was a Christian, I can only say that there are gay Christians, and Christians who do not believe gays are going to Hell"

I often wonder about people who say that gays are going to hell, because it show an EXTREME lack of understanding as to what Christinanity and Salvation are all about and how it works. I will not hide the fact that I consider (based on my reading of the Bible) homosexuality to be a sin, but it is in no way worse than any other sin. There are not levels of sin, there is just sin.

"Actually (I just read the lurker's post) I am afraid this could turn into a religious debate (read: flame war), and I don't want to contribute to that. Let's not get into the Bible, what it says and how we should interpret it for our own sake."

Well, if nobody else is interested, then we can just avoid that subject. For myself I enjoy debating and talking with people of differant beliefs than my own that I have a tendancy to turn every subject into a debate. My natural reaction to seeing a post with which I disagree is to chalange it, not realizing that not everyone shares my love of disagreing with people.

Anyway, I'd better quit babbling and allow you to do something a little more worthwhile than reading the ramblings of a teenager (attempting) to explain the strange and totally baffling thought patterns (?) of his twisted and (currently) rather bored mind.

Ñólendil · 10-10-2001, 05:09 PM

I should have deleted everything in my post save the conclusion, really.

samwise of the shire · 10-10-2001, 06:01 PM

Well we also have to remember that back in Tolkiens day even THINKING about being gay was shameful, and in the Middle Ages(in which time LOTR takes place.)it was considered to go hand in hand with witchcraft and the penalty for witchcraft was death, so I dont doubt Tolkien was against homosexual couples. And Play Girl I say this with all respect. I am a teen girl as well, but never once did I think Sam and Frodo were homosexual, so I think you're statement of I am a teen girl is totally and absolutley mute.
Sam
ps. I will be back It's just a time limit that stops me from posting more.

Comic Book Guy · 10-10-2001, 06:12 PM

I always thought you were male Samwise, judging from the name.

Ñólendil · 10-10-2001, 06:38 PM

I propose we drop the whole argument about homosexuality, and leave Play Girl (who has done nothing wrong) to post in peace!

The LR does not take place in the Middle Ages, it's supposed to be set in an imaginary time about 6,000 years ago.

***anduin*** · 10-10-2001, 10:42 PM

I always thought that Sam was a guy too until I read what she posted about Frodo/Wood's eyes in the "i luv Frodo" thread in LOTR Movies.

I was well into my 20's when I first read LOTR and I have to admit that Sam's behavior towards Frodo reminded me of a homosexual relationship. In fact the first instance that I came across (don't even remember now what it was) caused me to go, "hey, what the.." It makes no matter whether you are a teenaged girl or not...or a girl at all...there is nothing wrong with making a connection, even if it is a futile one. The human mind likes to run away sometimes....simple as that. Even bringing up the idea in a thread is not shameful when done in a harmless way which I feel she did, not to mention that it has given us all something different to talk about.

easterlinge · 10-10-2001, 11:16 PM

Samwise had 13 kids!!! Woooo...... Sam & Rosie, a very passionate couple. I had a Chemistry teacher who was one of 12 once.

If 13 kids is typical for Hobbits, how come Middle-Earth isn't jam-packed with them, so the 4th Age would be the "Dominion of Men and Halflings"?

10-08-2001, 09:56 AM	#21
webwizard333 Elf Lord Join Date: May 2001 Location: myob Posts: 587	I agree with Inoldonil. And look at all the replys in this topic, she knows how to get a conversation going. But, I don't think that any of the male characters were "romantically involved". __________________ Boo!

10-08-2001, 06:56 PM	#22
Sakata Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Lothlorien Posts: 216	sorry, but I have little tolerance for immaturity __________________ "When evil people come to destroy me, when my enemies and foes attack me, they will stumble and fall. Though a mighty army surrounds me, my heart will know no fear." -Psalms 27:2-3 -Dare you venture into Gollum's Lair? JESUS LIVES!

10-08-2001, 11:55 PM	#24
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	I thought Play Girl's post was humorous, and typical for coming from an 18 year old (so her profile makes her, not twelve). I do not use the word 'typical' in a bad way. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

10-09-2001, 01:52 AM	#26
Varda Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Carmel Valley, CA Posts: 146	I don't think I ever got the innuendo upon first reading, but then I tend not to think that way. Also, I was sort of raised on the animated versions from an age when I didn't even know there was such a thing as homosexuality. But I can see where someone would get that I guess. I also don't think it's likely due to Tolkien's being Christian. Also, to anyone who thinks the concept is immature... that kind of thinking permeates a lot of modern movies, tv shows and other parts of our culture. Tolkien was a product of his culture, and Play Girl is a product of hers. __________________ "Life's a journey, not a destination." --Steven Tyler, Aerosmith, Arwen's daddy MySpace

10-09-2001, 02:04 AM	#27
Varda Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Carmel Valley, CA Posts: 146	and it shows her as 16 (bdate 1984) __________________ "Life's a journey, not a destination." --Steven Tyler, Aerosmith, Arwen's daddy MySpace

10-09-2001, 12:09 PM	#28
Strange-Looking Lurker Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: OK, USA Posts: 213	decides to take a novel aproach PlayGirl, how old are you? Although I don't know for sure what Tolkiens thoughts on homosexuality where, I think we can safely assume that the chances make him opposed to it. Several people have chalenged others (hey, I'm too lazy to go back and look at screen names!) to show them that Tolkien was opposed to homosexuality. But they have not been able to show anything that shows he thought of homosexuals in a good light. But, given that he beleived in the Bible, and that Romans 1 makes clear what the Bible says about homosexuals, I would say that Tolkien was not likely to put homosexuals characters in the role of his main characters. As for what you should read next, by all means read the Sim! It's harder to read than LOTR because it's more of a history book than a story, but it is VERY interesting! LOTR will mean alot more the next time you read it too. __________________ <hr>Check out my site: www.christianjugglers.org

10-09-2001, 12:45 PM	#29
Darth Tater The man Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: MA Posts: 4,572	My thoughts on Tolkien's views regarding homosexuality are based on Carpenter's authorized biography. YOu should read it Inoldonil, it's quite good. Also, that quote is from the Bible! Where have you been? __________________ Visit the worlds greatest webpage! No, not The Tolkien Trail! Just click this! The Tolkien Trail ~Camelot

10-09-2001, 05:57 PM	#31
Sakata Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Lothlorien Posts: 216	okay, 12 years old, I would understand her immaturaty. 16? well I considering I am only 15 I would expect better. __________________ "When evil people come to destroy me, when my enemies and foes attack me, they will stumble and fall. Though a mighty army surrounds me, my heart will know no fear." -Psalms 27:2-3 -Dare you venture into Gollum's Lair? JESUS LIVES!

10-10-2001, 12:14 AM	#33
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	It's not a big deal.

10-10-2001, 01:15 PM	#34
Strange-Looking Lurker Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: OK, USA Posts: 213	"As for Tolkien not making his characters gay because he was a Christian, I can only say that there are gay Christians, and Christians who do not believe gays are going to Hell" I often wonder about people who say that gays are going to hell, because it show an EXTREME lack of understanding as to what Christinanity and Salvation are all about and how it works. I will not hide the fact that I consider (based on my reading of the Bible) homosexuality to be a sin, but it is in no way worse than any other sin. There are not levels of sin, there is just sin. "Actually (I just read the lurker's post) I am afraid this could turn into a religious debate (read: flame war), and I don't want to contribute to that. Let's not get into the Bible, what it says and how we should interpret it for our own sake." Well, if nobody else is interested, then we can just avoid that subject. For myself I enjoy debating and talking with people of differant beliefs than my own that I have a tendancy to turn every subject into a debate. My natural reaction to seeing a post with which I disagree is to chalange it, not realizing that not everyone shares my love of disagreing with people. Anyway, I'd better quit babbling and allow you to do something a little more worthwhile than reading the ramblings of a teenager (attempting) to explain the strange and totally baffling thought patterns (?) of his twisted and (currently) rather bored mind. __________________ <hr>Check out my site: www.christianjugglers.org

10-10-2001, 05:09 PM	#35
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	I should have deleted everything in my post save the conclusion, really. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

10-10-2001, 06:01 PM	#36
samwise of the shire Radically Tolkienited Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: If home is where the heart is, and my heart is in heaven...that should answer your question. <+>< Posts: 967	No text up here Well we also have to remember that back in Tolkiens day even THINKING about being gay was shameful, and in the Middle Ages(in which time LOTR takes place.)it was considered to go hand in hand with witchcraft and the penalty for witchcraft was death, so I dont doubt Tolkien was against homosexual couples. And Play Girl I say this with all respect. I am a teen girl as well, but never once did I think Sam and Frodo were homosexual, so I think you're statement of I am a teen girl is totally and absolutley mute. Sam ps. I will be back It's just a time limit that stops me from posting more. __________________ Jesus is my all in all <><+<><+<><+<><+<><+<><+ People who are so concerned with escapism do have a name...we call them jailers. ~J.R.R Tolkien Radically Saved, Totally Tolkienited GOD... BLESS... AMERICA...

10-10-2001, 06:12 PM	#37
Comic Book Guy Best Ex-Administrator ever Join Date: May 2001 Location: Ireland Posts: 60,547	I always thought you were male Samwise, judging from the name.

10-10-2001, 06:38 PM	#38
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	I propose we drop the whole argument about homosexuality, and leave Play Girl (who has done nothing wrong) to post in peace! The LR does not take place in the Middle Ages, it's supposed to be set in an imaginary time about 6,000 years ago. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

10-10-2001, 10:42 PM	#39
*anduin* Entwife Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: louisville Posts: 3,718	I always thought that Sam was a guy too until I read what she posted about Frodo/Wood's eyes in the "i luv Frodo" thread in LOTR Movies. I was well into my 20's when I first read LOTR and I have to admit that Sam's behavior towards Frodo reminded me of a homosexual relationship. In fact the first instance that I came across (don't even remember now what it was) caused me to go, "hey, what the.." It makes no matter whether you are a teenaged girl or not...or a girl at all...there is nothing wrong with making a connection, even if it is a futile one. The human mind likes to run away sometimes....simple as that. Even bringing up the idea in a thread is not shameful when done in a harmless way which I feel she did, not to mention that it has given us all something different to talk about.

10-10-2001, 11:16 PM	#40
easterlinge Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Farthest Khand, the darkest East... Posts: 442	Samwise had 13 kids!!! Woooo...... Sam & Rosie, a very passionate couple. I had a Chemistry teacher who was one of 12 once. If 13 kids is typical for Hobbits, how come Middle-Earth isn't jam-packed with them, so the 4th Age would be the "Dominion of Men and Halflings"?