Elven Kings

[Ñólendil]

*chuckles*

He did come back without a Silmaril. That's why he's Beren Camlost, the Empty-handed. Carcharoth ate it with Beren's hand, remember?

[Finmandos12]

You know what I mean. If all three were still in Morgoth's crown, then he wouldn't have felt nicer toward him.

[Sister Golden Hair]

That is true, he did not come back with the Silmaril. Thingol did feel mercy for him when he saw what Beren went through trying to get it. He had lost his hand which is how the great wolf got the Silmaril. I will give Thingol credit where he deserves it, but that is not much. IMHO, the only reason he felt any good feelings for Beren, was that he finally realized how much this man loved his daughter. To do all that he did to gain Thingol's approval was a true testiment of Beren's love and loyalty to Luthien. However, that does not undo the harm that was done at Thingol's bidding.

[Finmandos12]

Thats right Sister!

[easterlinge]

Am I the only guy who likes Thingol? He did no worse than Feanor and 5 of his 7 sons.

[Ñólendil]

No, I didn't know what you meant Finmandos, but he accepted Beren before he knew his story, and when he did he was filled the more with wonder. I didn't mean to be mean

IMHO, the only reason he felt any good feelings for Beren, was that he finally realized how much this man loved his daughter.

IMPO, that's definitely true, but let us not downplay the words: 'good feelings'. It is not as though he rued Beren as the love of Lúthien, accepting only because he perceived at last Lúthien would despair if he didn't. Let us remember that he indeed had 'good feelings'. Finally realizing how much Beren loved his daughter, Thingol's feelings towards him changed, and perceiving his high Doom he accepted it.

And you are right, it doesn't undue what evil came about of Beren's Quest (put on him for his death by Thingol). But let us also not forget the words of the Elder King!: 'Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been.' He was not talking about Thingol of course, but this still applies. Yet Námo's addition does not: 'And yet remain evil.' Say rather that it (perhaps) shall 'become good'. You say much of all the evils and sorrows that came about by this quest, but you say very little of the good and the joys.

Beren did get the Silmaril, didn't he? If he hadn't it (the retrieval of the Silmaril) would never have been achieved, save after the War of Wrath. Actually, no, not after the War of Wrath. There would not have been a War of Wrath, because Eärendil would never have been able to sail into the West. I don't doubt that the Doom of Mandos and the Malice of Morgoth would have prevailed. There would be no hope for the enemies of the Enemy. When Melkor would have been assailed by the Valar cannot be determined, but be assured it would not have been until even greater evil had come to pass.

Even assuming Lúthien and Beren were allowed to marry by Thingol, and the ennoblement of the Younger Children took place, the granddaughter of Beren (Elwing) could not have 'inherited' the Silmaril. Morgoth would have won.

So yes, what Thingol did was in itself wrong and unjust and we may be glad that he learned better, but it also brought about the last hope of Melkor's enemies, and glorious justice.

You may have noticed that my point has now changed. I understand the dislike of Elu, I merely bid you remember the good in him and the results of the Quest he laid on Beren in your judgment.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by easterlinge
Am I the only guy who likes Thingol? He did no worse than Feanor and 5 of his 7 sons.

No, I think you have an allie in Inoldonil. Well, you may be right there, but who likes Feanor for any good deeds that he ever did? He is admired for his craftsmenship. He certianly was no boyscout.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Frankly Inoldonil, I dislike Thingol most because of Finrod, but there is many other things as well. I fail to see any good that came out of the events brought about by Thingol. For instance, Beren and Luthien did not live happily ever after. When they were permitted to return from death and to live together in Middle-earth they lived "without certitude of life or joy"(The Silmarillion) To make a defense for him by saying this good or that good came from that bad is like saying, yeah, I caused the death of my daughters lover and my nephew and some other guys and my daughter grieved herself to death from it, but hey if I hadn't done that, we would have never been helped by the Valar, so guess what, I did all this bad stuff, but it saved the day. Sorry, but that is just not how I see it.

[Ñólendil]

I had to look up the 'w/o certitude of life or joy' quote, then I had to look up 'certitude'. As I'm sure you know, certitude is the state of being certain.

You twisted the passage a little. That part comes from the time when Lúthien must choose her fate:

These were the choices that he gave to Lúthien. Because of her labours and her sorrow, she should be released from Mandos, and go to Valimar, there to dwell until the world's end among the Valar, forgetting all griefs that her life had known. Thither Beren could not come. For it was not permitted to the Valar to withhold Death from him, which is the gift of Ilúvatar to Men. But the other choice was this: that she might return to Middle-earth, and take with her Beren, there to dwell again, but without certitude of life or joy. Then she would become mortal, and subject to a second death, even as he; and ere long she would leave the world for ever, and her beauty become only a memory in song.

This doom she chose, forsaking the Blessed Realm, and putting aside all claim to kinship with those that dwell there; that thus whatever grief might lie in wait, the fates of Beren and Lúthien might be joined, and their paths lead together beyond the confines of the world. So it was that alone of the Eldalië she had died indeed, and left the world long ago. Yet in her choice the Two Kindreds have been joined; and she is the forerunner of many in whom the Eldar see yet, though all the world is changed, the likeness of Lúthien the beloved, whom they have lost.

It says not at all that she was depressed and joyless in Middle-earth with Beren. We are here comparing her choices. To live in Aman until it dies is a promiss (at least in theory) of bliss and gladness. Nothing can be certain with a life in Middle-earth, and not even the Valar know what will happen afterwards. If that is a sad ending to Lúthien's life, then all men and women who have died in peace with their loves, not knowing what will come after -- have also met with a sad ending. This is a happy ending! For Lúthien and Beren at the least, it is! Do you really think Tolkien would have written out a sad ending for Lúthien and Beren? Those names are engraved on their tombstones you know, Edith Bratt's and JRR Tolkien's.

Anyway I think you've missed my point. My last paragraph was: You may have noticed that my point has now changed. I understand the dislike of Elu, I merely bid you remember the good in him and the results of the Quest he laid on Beren in your judgment.

Or again: So yes, what Thingol did was in itself wrong and unjust and we may be glad that he learned better, but it also brought about the last hope of Melkor's enemies, and glorious justice

I am not justifying Thingol's glorified death sentence of Beren by pointing out the good things that happened after.

As Tolkien said of Gollum, the ends do not justify the means. Gollum brought about the destruction of the Dark Lord. Brought it about -- from treachery. He was wretched, the poor thing. He destroyed the Ring on accident. That does not make him good. That does not make what he tried to do to Frodo good. We should rather be glad that Sam pitied him at last on the slopes of the Mountain (but too late for Gollum's good).

Similarly Thingol in a way (more indirectly), rather loosely I stress, brought about the destruction of the Dark Lord. Brought it about -- by way of an attempt to kill off Beren. We should rather be glad that Beren succeeded in his quest, and we should praise him. Unlike Gollum however, Thingol repented, but that does not make it right. I agree with you.

No, I'm definitely not justifying Thingol's glorified death sentence of Beren by pointing out the good things that happened after. I am pointing out the good things that happened after because you seem to prefer to ignore them

It's fun to debate with you though!

[adanedhel]

I agree SGH...the end doesn't justify the means. After all Inoldonil, the same thing can be said of Feanor, if he and his sons hadn't taken the "oath" and led the Noldor out of Aman, then the end of Morgoth wouldn't have occured either.

No, I can't defend Thingol, he was perhaps the most bigoted person in Beleriand. He thought himself (and his people) above both men and dwarves. Of men he declared "Into Doriath shall no Man come while my realm lasts, ...." To the Dwarves after they demanded the Nauglamir he said "How dare ye of an uncouth race dare to demand aught of me, Elu Thingol, Lord of Beleriand, whose life began by the waters of Cuivienan years uncounted ere the fathers of the stunted people awoke?" Thus it was his PRIDE that killed him.

That being said, I still believe him to be the greatest of the Elven Kings. Would I want to be his friend? Probably not. His ally? Most certainly. A King's first thought should be for his kingdom and his people, and Thingol seemed to keep that in mind.

But the question was not the "who was the greatest, but who was the best. My vote goes to Turgon. He kingdom ended because he was kind to Hurin and Huor. If he had forbidden them to leave, they would have died of old age there and perhaps his kingdom would have remained hidden. He was also less proud than any other king...being the only one to seek pardon and aid from the Valar. HE I would want as friend AND ally.

[Finmandos12]

If Thingol had not demanded the Silmaril from Beren, then Doriath would never have fallen. Morgoth was the only one who could have broken the Girdle of Melian.

This brings up another elf: Maeglin (cue ominous music). He, I believe, was the only elf who was truly evil and did nothing good. It was his fault Gondolin fell, not Turgon's love of H&H. Of he had never disobeyed Turgon, then who knows how long Gondolin would have lasted? Turgon was prideful sometimes, such as his refusal to listen to Ulmo, but overall he was one of the better kings.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I haven't chose to ignore the good in Thingol. I admit that he changed toward men after the quest of Beren. As I said before, he even fostered Turin, and loved him as a son. When Turin accidently caused the death of Saeros, Thingol imediately pardoned him and sent Beleg to find him and bring him back. As I point out agian though all of this good that we are speaking of happened after the fact, and although any good came from the quest of Beren, I would not atribute that to Thingol just because he put the events in motion. I am not trying to paint him as a evil character, but one more of selfish and foolish pride, not evil.
You know, I don't like Celeborn much either. He reminds me of Thingol. He was of Thingol's people. How ironic that they both marry two of the greatest ladies in the mythology. I will never understand that.
Yes I know about Edith and J.R.R. and that Beren and Luthien were fashioned from them. As for Beren and Luthien's happiness after their return to Middle-earth, we really don't know. The text does not Focus on them much after. They are secluded and never seen by others I think.
I am glad we agree to a point, and debating with you has been most enjoyable for me as well.

[Ñólendil]

So you're taking into account all the good stuff that happened and all the good stuff in him, before and after the Beren business, but you don't care much about that and would rather mind the other side of the coin, is that it?

Oh we agree completely about Thingol, but I think it's just that my glass is half full and yours is half empty.

Anyway I can like a character whether they started or ended good or bad in any sense, although I might be saddened or uplifted etc. on the way. That's probably one of the sources for the rift in our views. I daresay Curumo turned out worse than Thingol, but I like him, and pity him. I always root for him in the Voice of Saruman, wish he'd just give Gandalf the keys, but he can't. I like him anyway.

Would you care to suppose Beren and Lúthien were unhappy in their final days?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
So you're taking into account all the good stuff that happened and all the good stuff in him, before and after the Beren business, but you don't care much about that and would rather mind the other side of the coin, is that it?

I fail really to see any good stuff before the quest, I don't think I have given you a narrow minded impression,and I have acknowledged his good points. To be honest though, I think he had more bad then good ones, so there is just more to say about that. It is not that I choose to pick the bad side of the coin, there is just more on that side.

[i]Oh we agree completely about Thingol, but I think it's just that my glass is half full and yours is half empty.? [/B]

So, you are an optimist. Good for you.

[i]Would you care to suppose Beren and Lúthien were unhappy in their final days? [/B]

I could do that, however, that would be speculation. That was a condition to the choice that Luthien made if she and Beren returned to Middle-earth "w/o certitude of life or joy." This is the only clue that one may be able to draw on as to how happy they were, and that is not much. As I said, we do not know this after they return. The text does not make that clear. So, the best you can do is speculate which does not make it so.

[easterlinge]

Elves never really did understand the Atani and the Gift of Iluvatar. Gildor Inglorion even said that mortals are none of their concern, and are not their study. Even Arwen only understood Men and pitied the Numenoreans when Aragorn was dying, thinking them wicked and foolish.

I daresay the same applies to Thingol: until Beren came along he didn't understand Men at all. I think Thingol learned more about Men then, and stopped despising them. He let the people of Haleth dwell in Brethil, and took many Men into his service.

I think if the proper circumstance had arisen, he may have come to respect the Dwarves too.

If he hasn't already that is; Menegroth was wrought with the help of Dwarves. THe scene with the Nauglamir has nothing to do with Elven pride but with royal wrath: Kings do fly into rage when denied something that is believed to be their right. And the Dwarves were cheating. I'd be angry too.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by easterlinge
Elves never really did understand the Atani and the Gift of Iluvatar. Gildor Inglorion even said that mortals are none of their concern, and are not their study. Even Arwen only understood Men and pitied the Numenoreans when Aragorn was dying, thinking them wicked and foolish.

This is true about Arwen, and she lived a very sheltered life. Thingol was there from the start. Gildor Inglorion did not say that exactly. What he said was: "The Elves have their own labors and their own sorrows, and they are little concerned with the ways of Hobbits, or of any other creatures upon earth." That covers a wide territory I would say, and is not limited to Men.

[i]I daresay the same applies to Thingol: until Beren came along he didn't understand Men at all. I think Thingol learned more about Men then, and stopped despising them. He let the people of Haleth dwell in Brethil, and took many Men into his service..[/B]

He did not allow Haleth and her people to dwell in Brethil, until Finrod spoke to Thingol on her behalf. And then he attached a condition. "Now Brethil was claimed as part of his realm by King Thingol, though it was not within the Girdle of Melian, and he would have denied it to Haleth; but Felegund who had the friendship of Thingol, learning of all that had befallen the people of Haleth, obtained this grace for her: that she should dwell free in Brethil upon the condition only that her people should guard the Crossing of Teiglin against all enemies of the Eldar, and allow no Orcs to enter their woods. To this Haleth answered: "Where are Haldad my father, and Haldar my brother? If the King of Doriath fears a friendship between Haleth and those that have devoured her kin, then the thoughts of the Eldar are strange to Men."

I

[i] think if the proper circumstance had arisen, he may have come to respect the Dwarves too...[/B]

I don't really know alot about his relations with the Dwarves, so this I won't debate.

I

[i] If he hasn't already that is; Menegroth was wrought with the help of Dwarves. THe scene with the Nauglamir has nothing to do with Elven pride but with royal wrath: Kings do fly into rage when denied something that is believed to be their right. And the Dwarves were cheating. I'd be angry too. [/B]

Why was the Nauglamir Thingol's? As much of a jerk as Mim was, I think he had more of a claim then Thingol did. The Nauglamir should have gone to Galadriel.

[Elvellon]

Hi,


I think of Thingol was a loving father, but a very jealous one. I don’t think he had give much thought about the consequences of sending Beren in an impossible quest. Likely, he believed Beren would give up immediately, and then would return to the wild, defeated. It isn’t probable, in my view that he had thought Beren would turn to Finrod for aid (if he knew of Finrod’s vow in the first place).

This Take us to another question, what was the nature of Thingol’s prejudice against humans?
It is possible that he had heard rumours about the betrayal of the Avari by the human tribes in the East.
(Some of the people of Doriath were, in origin, Nandor, escaping from the lands east of the Blue Mountains, and they could have heard this rumours from the Avari further east).

[Lord_Ov_The_Thunder]

Thingol was a great king, though he was cruel to Beren, he then repented when Turin came to Doriath!!! And as for the my fav, he was undoubtly Finrod Felagund, he was wise and all his deeds were valiant, and his death defending Beren was more than tragic, it touched me deep.......

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Elvellon
Hi,


I think of Thingol was a loving father, but a very jealous one. I don’t think he had give much thought about the consequences of sending Beren in an impossible quest. Likely, he believed Beren would give up immediately, and then would return to the wild, defeated. It isn’t probable, in my view that he had thought Beren would turn to Finrod for aid (if he knew of Finrod’s vow in the first place).

I have to disagree that Thingol was not aware of the conseqences of the quest. His wish for Beren's death was the entire reason for why he did this. It never came in to his mind that Beren would survive, and his death would mean the end of him and Luthien. That was Thingol's plan. Even Finrod told Beren: "It is plain that Thingol desires your death, but it appears that this doom goes beuond his purpose and that the Oath of Feanor is again at work, for the Silmarils are cursed with an oath of hatred and he that even names them in desire, moves a great power from slumber."

As for knowing of Finrod's vowel, of course he knew. Beren showed Thingol the ring of Barahir.

[i]This Take us to another question, what was the nature of Thingol’s prejudice against humans? ). [/B]

Thingol's prejudice was not limited to Humans alone. He was very upset when the Noldor came from Aman. Thingol claimed to be Lord of Beleriand and he was afraid that with the return of the Noldor that that title might be threatened. As for men, the fact that they were mortal and of brief sevice was the root of his hatred for them. In his mind, they were greatly inferior.

[Finmandos12]

I forgot about the Noldor. I think that the main characteristics of Thingol were jealousy and pride. When anyone challenged him, he hated them. He liked Beren because of what he did for HIM. When other men did valiant things, he couldn't care less.