The Entmoot Court

[Gwaimir Windgem]

No, Mari is right. It's absurd to judge the denizens of Mordor by a Gondorean morality! It is altogether a different culture, a different reality they live. Ideas and moral codes are meaningless divorced from the cultural context in which they arise. What is fair in Mordor is foul in Gondor, and vice versa, and to impose our Gondorean notions of right and wrong is a great crime! Such antiquated notions should have died decades ago! I protest this imperialist policy of the Master of Fine Arts...err...the Minister of Foreign Affairs!

[hectorberlioz]

Thanks for defending me, Gwai

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Oh, I'm not defending you. You're a Mootling. You should know better. I'm just defending Mordor.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

No, Mari is right. It's absurd to judge the denizens of Mordor by a Gondorean morality! It is altogether a different culture, a different reality they live. Ideas and moral codes are meaningless divorced from the cultural context in which they arise. What is fair in Mordor is foul in Gondor, and vice versa, and to impose our Gondorean notions of right and wrong is a great crime! Such antiquated notions should have died decades ago! I protest this imperialist policy of the Master of Fine Arts...err...the Minister of Foreign Affairs!

King Aragorn would not have agreed with you.

'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'

The Riders of Rohan, LOTR

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Secondly... Ben, the founder of Entmoot, is from New Jersey.

Since several citizens of Entmoot have voiced skepticism about the New Jerseyness of Hector, and since our dear founder is a New Jerseyan, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs retracts its ban on passports for the state. We've also fired the power-abusing, morally bankrupt young bureaucrat that put the state on the list

Originally Posted by Mari

By the by, isn't North-Korea equal to Axis of Evil?

Concerning North Korea's Axis of Evilness, yes, it is part of it, but no, the Axis of Evil is faaaaaaaaaar greater than one particular country. We emphasized North Korea to put away all doubt about its evilness...

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

Perhaps the task of this court is to decide what is evil and what isn't?

Precisely!

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

It's absurd to judge the denizens of Mordor by a Gondorean morality!

I think most Entmootians would agree that this relativistic clap-trap about 'different moralities' is the type of highly suspect rhetoric that corrupted the once good and virgin-mannered Hector

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

King Aragorn would not have agreed with you.

Which in the end is what really counts

Hail Acally and Aragorn!

[Jonathan]

To: Minister of Foreign Affairs of Entmoot, Coffeehouse

Dear Minister,

I thank you for your letter. The cooperation of the MFA is most appreciated. It is also pleasing to hear that the restrictions on travellers from the state of New Jersey, have been lifted. For a time there, you risked evoking the wrath of the Jersey Devil... Yeah, the old-timers here know what I mean.

Besides, as far as I remember, Hector lives in Tennessee

Regards
Jonathan
Ministry of Justice

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Hm, if I provide evidence and testimony that Hector has put cameras in people's underwear drawers, will the court ban the use of Euro-English anywhere outside the election result-thread?

Eärniel, you're a darling! If you're willing to take the witness stand, I will kiss your feet with lips drenched in chocolate
Oh, and I'll talk to Inked too.

Maybe you'd like to give your testimony right away? If so, the floor is yours.

Originally Posted by Mari

I do feel that you are discriminating against evil though. Actually, I think I might want to take this matter of discrimination to court. Surely we don't allow for this sort of thing amidst our ranks?

But wouldn't disallowing discrimination be discrimination against the discriminators?

Hm, I do see Mari's point though, and Gwai is arguing quite convincingly. But then how could this court reject the wise words of King Elessar Telcontar and define good and evil differently?
Before we take this any further (trying to buy time here ), I propose the Kabinet Membr... sorry, the Cabinet Member for Language, Inked, delivers an expert opinion as to the genuinely linguistic meaning of "good" and "evil" respectively. I gather Inked also has a good insight regarding the Narnian moral values, which can't hurt.

[Midge]

I would like to propose a bake-off. May the best pie-maker make the decision!

However, I, as the Secretary of Homeland Treekeeping, I support Jonathan in his pursuit of an evil-free Entmoot. While we may have some disagreements about what evil really is, I believe we can all agree that evil is bad and bad is not good. My treekeeping duties include protecting the denizens of Entmoot from blatant corruption. I believe that most of the accusations listed above count as "corruption", defined as

Originally Posted by Merriam-Webster Dictionary

1. impairment of integrity, virtue, or moral principle; depravity
2. decay, decomposition
3. inducement to wrong by improper or unlawful means (as bribery)
4. a departure from the original or from what is pure or correct

And as Hector presented himself a certain way during the election and now is being shown to be another way, he is corrupt! Impeach the Berlioz!

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

I gather Inked also has a good insight regarding the Narnian moral values, which can't hurt.

Hear, hear!

As my Elven parents had stumbled through a portal to Narnia before I was born, causing me to be born and to grow up in that delightful country before eventually returning to Middle-earth, I wholeheartedly support Narnian moral values.
Claws and Regulations of NNFS

That's almost enough to forgive Inked for his Euro-English.

[Mari]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Concerning North Korea's Axis of Evilness, yes, it is part of it, but no, the Axis of Evil is faaaaaaaaaar greater than one particular country. We emphasized North Korea to put away all doubt about its evilness...

I resent this notion. Branding a whole country on account of it's leaders is not right. Furthermore, I do not believe the leaders themselves are wholly bad. Just misguided and misunderstood.
Actually, I resent the entire term 'axis of evil' for the above reasons and the reasons so eloquently mentioned by Gwai.

I also oppose Hector's impeachment.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Mari

I resent this notion. Branding a whole country on account of it's leaders is not right. Furthermore, I do not believe the leaders themselves are wholly bad. Just misguided and misunderstood.
Actually, I resent the entire term 'axis of evil' for the above reasons and the reasons so eloquently mentioned by Gwai.

I also oppose Hector's impeachment.

As a carefree Shireling I'm sure that view feels comforting... but the Ministry of Foreign Affairs cannot afford to follow the naive path of appeasement We must stand for the good values of our shining Entmootian city!

Where would that leave the Men of Middle Earth if they bought Sarumann's empty promises... or Europeans in the face of Hitler's deceitful evil

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

King Aragorn would not have agreed with you.

The Riders of Rohan, LOTR

The value of Elessar were well and good in his day, but they are now antiquated. Times have changed since the Third Age.

Originally Posted by CH

. . . once good and virgin-mannered . . .

*blink*

Originally Posted by Jonathong

Hm, I do see Mari's point though, and Gwai is arguing quite convincingly. But then how could this court reject the wise words of King Elessar Telcontar and define good and evil differently?

By recognizing that one concept or idea may suit one time very well, but be unfitting for another. Our pluralistic and postmodern age does not permit such universalist understandings of good and evil, divorced from context.

Originally Posted by Midge

While we may have some disagreements about what evil really is, I believe we can all agree that evil is bad and bad is not good.

Words of exceeding wisdom, for a former presidential candidate, who was known to bribe people with donuts.

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Eärniel, you're a darling! If you're willing to take the witness stand, I will kiss your feet with lips drenched in chocolate

That sounds slightly gross, and yet I do find myself intrigued by the thought of chocolate drenched lips. I'll wait to see how this all unfolds. *munches more popcorn*

[inked]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

Perhaps the task of this court is to decide what is evil and what isn't?

Then we can decide about discrimination afterwards ...

If dis kort is to desid vat iz evil und vat iz nicht evil, den it vil be "discriminating" und den it vil desid vat du ar kaling "discrimination". Du ned eine diktunary.

Du must spek de sam languag if du are going to hav meaning. Odervise, du end up like BrownJenkins dat der ar no absolutes except de absolut dat der ar no absoluts, of kors.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

The value of Elessar were well and good in his day, but they are now antiquated. Times have changed since the Third Age.

By recognizing that one concept or idea may suit one time very well, but be unfitting for another. Our pluralistic and postmodern age does not permit such universalist understandings of good and evil, divorced from context.

Originally Posted by inked

"And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

Change?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

There are no fundamental facts; there is no "man," there are only individual people, who are constituted by their relational and cultural contexts.

[inked]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

Perhaps the task of this court is to decide what is evil and what isn't?

Then we can decide about discrimination afterwards ...

If dis kort is to desid vat iz evil und vat iz nicht evil, den it vil be "discriminating" und den it vil desid vat du ar kaling "discrimination". Du ned eine diktunary.

Du must spek de sam languag if du are going to hav meaning. Odervise, du end up like BrownJenkins dat der ar no absolutes except de absolut dat der ar no absoluts, of kors.

"Before we take this any further (trying to buy time here ), I propose the Kabinet Membr... sorry, the Cabinet Member for Language, Inked, delivers an expert opinion as to the genuinely linguistic meaning of "good" and "evil" respectively. I gather Inked also has a good insight regarding the Narnian moral values, which can't hurt."

I ned not go to Narnia fur de mening of "good" und "evil". Du have de reality rit in front of du:
'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.' (Per Varnafinde who haz detektd de problem as notd abuv.)

Good iz dat vich akords mit de Creator. "There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is calle Iluvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, ... . And he spoke to them, propounding to them themes of music; ... Then Iluvatar said to them: "Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now the ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will."

Bad iz dat vich akords nicht mit de Creator. "But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar; for he sought therein to increase the power and the glory of the part assigned to himself. ...and straight-way discord rose about him, ... Then the discord of Melkor spread ever wider ..."

Den de Melkor fits aganst de Iluvatar fur zwei mor rownds und Iluvatar says, "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor cany any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

Du kanst se vidout dowt dat de good iz vas Eru, the One, Iluvatar makes und vat akordz mit Him. Du kanst se vidout dowt dat substitutun of de self-vil fur de vil of Iluvatar machen de bad (vich is merly ein parasit upon de gud).

Evil iz den de distortion of de gud, de discord os self-vel aganst de Creator; Evil hast nein existenc apart from de gud and iz mer shadow mit nein substanc of itz own. Gud, derfor, hast existenc und vat iz from it hast subsidiary existenc. Gud is reality und vat is alinged mit gud hast existenc. Evil is shadow und kannot hab even existenc apart from gud. Evil kanst only mutilat und rend und destroy dat which is gud. Evil iz banal und destruktiv and machen nicht gud dow it may aper to de self-centrd to be odervis.

De kort can nicht decide vas is gud und evil. Gud iz, Evil iz nicht aber dat vich rends, destroys or producs discord und disharmony und inkonstancy und de opposit of de gud. Gud iz mad known un knowabl und doz nicht chang machen bekaz it iz in de natur of Eru, the Holy One, Iluvatar.

Der ist nein eine gud fur Gondor und gud fur Mordor. Der ist einely gud und dat vich is nicht gud. Du ar fur on or de oder. Du kan er, du kan sek wrongly, du kan tak inordinatly, but dez ar nicht alternat gud. Dey are gud taken oder dan Iluvatar made. Den de are bad.

Und de sam is tru in Narnia. Aslan sang it into existenc. Oder dan Aslan's song and its adherents, der vas only de discord und disharmony und inkonstancy und de self-vil in opositun to Aslan. Der vas nicht eine gud fur Narnia dat vas diferent from de gud fur Earth. De gud akords mit de Creator of Al, from His very natur. Oder is nicht gud und nothingnes.

Und Gwai iz ful of de orc-hockey in hiz "argument". He machen nicht eine gud postmodernist. (But he parodies dem very vell!)

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Eärniel, you're a darling! If you're willing to take the witness stand, I will kiss your feet with lips drenched in chocolate
Oh, and I'll talk to Inked too.

Eh, thanks but no on the chocolate-front. I can think of a few more worthwhile uses for it.

Now, for the incident about the camera's in people's underwear drawers, we have to go back into the past, to 2006, a long, long time ago in a Teacup far, far away.

This is a time when Hector was already facing several, diverse accusations. This particular case started with Hector mentioning having spies everywhere, as is shown in exhibit A:

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

We have spies everywhere

And when confronted with the accusation that he was spying in women's bedrooms, he did not deny it! As he so eloquently put it:

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Oops...

It caused quite a stir... And even made the local news! Then came the shocking realisation:

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I don't have a drawer under my bed, so the only one you could have meant is the one with my underwear. Nope, so not helping your case.

Yes, people, Hector was going through women's underwear drawers to place cameras. We never knew how many victims he made.

He then proceeded to dig himself in even further and even tried to save himself by filibustering. But to no avail. However, the case took on a new aspect as Sane admitted to being his accomplice. Or was she the ring-leader after all? Was Sane the strong woman behind one of Entmoot's most known politicians? Was she trying to divert the attention away from Hector by spreading false accusations about well-respected members of society?

We shall never know.


However, the honoured jury should also consider he was not alone in this crime, and that very likely, I have already hit him on the head with a the plastic gecko as punishment somwhere in the intervening years, and by law one cannot be condemned for the same crime twice.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by inked

Und Gwai iz ful of de orc-hockey in hiz "argument". He machen nicht eine gud postmodernist. (But he parodies dem very vell!)

For shame; "parodies" cannot possibly be good EuroEnglish!

[inked]

"parodies" ist eine gut EuroEnglish. It iz eine loan vord. Se, du are nicht eine gud postodernist, Gwai, fur du belev in rulz. Ha!

[Midge]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Words of exceeding wisdom, for a former presidential candidate, who was known to bribe people with donuts.

May I just say that those were very good doughnuts! And to prove that I was not bribing anyone, I've brought more now, considering we've all been here nearly all day and I'm pretty sure we're all starving. In fact, that might be why it slowed down - people passed out from hypoglycemia or something like that.

Inked, your no-doubt wonderful speech was incredibly difficult to understand! I would like to request a translator from Euro-English to English! Politics in a language you can't understand SUCKS!

Also - I didn't know that Entmoot had a double-Jeopardy thing going on.

Also Also - I would like to point out how Hector flew the court when he found out he was on trial for impeachment but came back in when he heard that he might get to fight. Apparently Hector believes that violence IS the answer! This is also confirmed by the fact that he has no problems violating people's privacy when it comes to important things like unmentionables!

Also also also - The other day in the Teacup, I do believe I felt an odd sensation on my derriere at the exact instant I passed by Hector on his way to get a beverage from the kitchen.