Biology

[Nautipus]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

The dolphins who encircled these swimmers for 45 minutes were also Bottlenose Dolphins, unique among dolphins for their ability of self-awareness. Incidentally I came across a similar occurrence in an article now, where a surfer was bitten 3 times while on his surfing board, the white shark trying to chew off his right left, when suddenly dolpins intervened and, remarkably, did the exact same thing, swimming around and around the surfer until aid arrived.

That species of Dolphin is also the most aggressive, supposedly moreso than orcas, which are in fact dolphins.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Nautipus

Very good pints all. Also, many sharks are simply curious and like t figure their way around an object, and the only tactile organ they posses is their mouth. But that is irrelevent in this instance as is (for argument's sake) whether the shark was looking for a snack or not. I am not ready to jump on either boat, but right now I think I'm in yours. Coffeehouse, this is an endearing story to be sure, but it is mostly heresay.

I think it's slightly weird to call this mostly hearsay. This the combined eyewitness account of four lifeguards and one non-lifeguard (four swimmers and the one intervening lifeguard later on) whom all attest that the dolphins aggressively encircled them for 45 minutes. And as I've pointed out, it happened again with a surfer, in the same sort of intervening way. The surfer's story is even more to the point since it shows that while being half-way eaten alive the dolphins show up and stave off the attack by encirclement.

[Nautipus]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

I think it's slightly weird to call this mostly hearsay. This the combined eyewitness account of four lifeguards and one non-lifeguard (four swimmers and the one intervening lifeguard later on) whom all attest that the dolphins aggressively encircled them for 45 minutes. And as I've pointed out, it happened again with a surfer, in the same sort of intervening way. The surfer's story is even more to the point since it shows that while being half-way eaten alive the dolphins show up and stave off the attack by encirclement.

I'm not refuting EVERY incident, I'm just presenting a debatable (at least to me) point. Which is fun, and a good brain jogger. My point is simply that there could be other underlying causes, and that only one person actually saw the shark (or was it two? crect me if I'm wrong.). He was an experienced lifeguard, but it isnt impossible he was mistaken. many experienced doctors make mistakes too.

BUT, for the sake of argument let's say that this incident is irrefutable. Why dont we open up a new vein of debate and wrap our minds around why the animals (which are capable of all that is listed in the article I posted) are interested in protecting some mammals and not others.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Nautipus

I'm not refuting EVERY incident, I'm just presenting a debatable (at least to me) point. Which is fun, and a good brain jogger. My point is simply that there could be other underlying causes, and that only one person actually saw the shark (or was it two? crect me if I'm wrong.). He was an experienced lifeguard, but it isnt impossible he was mistaken. many experienced doctors make mistakes too.

BUT, for the sake of argument let's say that this incident is irrefutable. Why dont we open up a new vein of debate and wrap our minds around why the animals (which are capable of all that is listed in the article I posted) are interested in protecting some mammals and not others.

Two experienced lifeguards saw the great white. Personally I think it's quite obvious what the dolphins were doing for that length of time and seeing the circumstances.

I think the behaviour of helping others that seem helpless, in the case of Bottlenose Dolphins, from whales to humans, logically occurs when truly the helpless are helpless and the dolphins intervene on their behalf. It most likely is a rare thing they do, but one wouldn't expect Bottlenose Dolphins to intervene in cases where another animal (which is in 'danger') can pose a danger to the dolphins themselves. These dolphins being intelligent they most likely can differentiate between cases of when they should and should not intervene. Fascinating though. And I'm quite ready to accept the fact that Bottlenose Dolphins have from time to time intervened altruistically or near-altruistically.

*But its late so its good night for me cya*

[Nautipus]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Two experienced lifeguards saw the great white. Personally I think it's quite obvious what the dolphins were doing for that length of time and seeing the circumstances.

True, it's hard to think that the dolphins were doing something other than protecting the swimmers. But if they were, WHAT was it they were doing.

I think the behaviour of helping others that seem helpless, in the case of Bottlenose Dolphins, from whales to humans, logically occurs when truly the helpless are helpless and the dolphins intervene on their behalf. It most likely is a rare thing they do, but one wouldn't expect Bottlenose Dolphins to intervene in cases where another animal can pose a danger. These dolphins being intelligent they most likely can differentiate between cases of when they should and should not intervene. Fascinating though.

True, very fascinating. And intrinsically, the assumption that dolphins see helpless animals as anything other than a prey item seem to be the antithesis of most predatorial behavior. But hey, humans arent so different, maybe that is a sign of great intelligence. Or not so great intelligence, another debatable point. In any case, I'm retiring. It's late here, so I'll leave you t it. Enjoy noodling.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

I didn't quite understand what you meant there

Oh, I meant that it's good to eat food from diverse sources, but we don't really do that. However, we do eat food from three different kingdoms, which is impressive considering how different fungi, plantae and animalia are. Sorry.

I think there is enough discussion in this thread as well as in the science thread to warrant two separate threads.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Dolphins. Pbbbt.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...spects.html%20

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

According to the most experienced of the lifeguards, the one who was less than 1 meter away from the white shark, it was a massive specimen. The area in which they were swimming was many, many meters deep. They were during the time the dolphins circled around them, between two islands, in a bay and far from either shore. It certainly was no shallow place.[...]According to the lifeguard he was not bitten because the dolphin intervened and struck the white shark. Seems good enough evidence of an attempted attack.

Ah, now we're talking. All that info wasn't present to first time around. See how those things matter?

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

It most likely is a rare thing they do, but one wouldn't expect Bottlenose Dolphins to intervene in cases where another animal (which is in 'danger') can pose a danger to the dolphins themselves.

One may wonder, considering the intelligence of dolphins, whether they merely reacted to a danger or saw an added opportunity to pester an enemy by spoiling its hunt. You never can be quite sure with dolphins, they tend to do strange things sometimes purely for the fun of it. And their higher numbers may have a factor too if it was only one shark.

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Dolphins. Pbbbt.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...spects.html%20

Yes, that's a side of dolphins most people rather not hear about! Makes them look somewhat more like us humans, I think.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Ah, now we're talking. All that info wasn't present to first time around. See how those things matter?

Lol, Eärniel, apart from specifically pointing out that it was deep, I wrote about this in the first post

Originally Posted by Eärniel

One may wonder, considering the intelligence of dolphins, whether they merely reacted to a danger or saw an added opportunity to pester an enemy by spoiling its hunt. You never can be quite sure with dolphins, they tend to do strange things sometimes purely for the fun of it. And their higher numbers may have a factor too if it was only one shark.

It seems the dolphins did a whole lot more than pester the enemy. Seems like active intervention and desginated protection of the four (and later, five) swimmers. What these marinebiologists believe is that the first dolphins that arrived might have signalled to other dolphins hundreds of meters, even over 1 km away, that something was amiss.

While protecting the swimmers, encircling around and around, and at the same time coaxing the great white, the dolphins must have sent signals to one another to organize the entire endeveaour. Marine biologists have found that dolphins can emit signals to other individuals meant specifically for that particular dolphin.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Yes, that's a side of dolphins most people rather not hear about! Makes them look somewhat more like us humans, I think.

Naturally, with intelligence comes self-awareness and if dolphins can exhibit graet empathy it's natural that they can exhibit the same degree of cruelty. We human beings are good examples of this

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Lol, Eärniel, apart from specifically pointing out that it was deep, I wrote about this in the first post

I've just re-read again and sorry, I still don't see any of that. Unless you can point out where exactly in the text, I see no mention anywhere of the shark's size, or it actually being agressive except for mentions it was swimming near or beneath the swimmers. There is also no mention of the shark making an actual attempt at biting the lifeguard or the dolphin striking the shark before it can sink his teeth in the guy.

Heck, I'd swim for my life too if I jumped in sea and saw a great white (if I haven't died of shock beforehand) but that doesn't automatically mean my life would be in any real danger.

The only action the dolphins undertake in the first post is circling and splashing, no other interaction with the shark was mentioned. Unles you use 'they must have' to mean 'they did', in that case I recommend reprhasing that part.

It seems the dolphins did a whole lot more than pester the enemy. Seems like active intervention and desginated protection of the four (and later, five) swimmers.

Yes, that's why I did say 'added' opportunity to pester an enemy.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I've just re-read again and sorry, I still don't see any of that. Unless you can point out where exactly in the text, I see no mention anywhere of the shark's size, or it actually being agressive except for mentions it was swimming near or beneath the swimmers. There is also no mention of the shark making an actual attempt at biting the lifeguard or the dolphin striking the shark before it can sink his teeth in the guy.

Come on Eärniel When I write great white shark what size do you expect?
And when I write "What then happened was crazy. Suddenly this dolphin comes speeding towards the two of them and is really close to hitting them and then dives into the water. The man instinctively looks down in the water to see where it went and, to his surprise and shock&awe he sees a great, white shark swimming just beneath him, within touching distance. It then dawns on him that what the dolphins are really doing is protecting them!" it's pretty clear what is happening. The mere fact that one of the dolphins suddenly came speeding towards them (dolphins are fast, agile swimmers) and that a great, white shark is 'within touching distance' (that's the length of a person's arm) should give a good idea of the significance of the dolphin's actions.

I think it's great that there are questions asked about this whole situation, but it seems to me that your underestimating what great white sharks are known to do when they meet humans. They don't merely smell your feet and tickle you. There have been many, many violent attacks off of the Australia/New Zealand coasts (especially involving surfers), as well as in South Africa (Durban is a renowned city for attacks on surfers), Argentina, etc (these are the places that I at least know of). Scepticism is nice, but given the situation I painted here (dolphins encircling human beings violently, as I point out, for 45 minutes tells you there is something going on)..

What I find interesting is what four swimmers were doing crossing that expanse of water, great white territory, without some sort of supervision or person standing on land. Seems risky.

Added: What remains a mystery though is how dolphins have come to decide that encircling human beings when sharks are near is a good tactic. Is it a way of thinking wired into their brain or is it, which would be remarkable, a conscious decision they collectively agree on?

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Come on Eärniel When I write great white shark what size do you expect?

Shockingly enough, even great whites come in different sizes and ages. Their size can be a determining factor in their hunting and interacting with other species. A two-meter great white or a six-meter great white are both still big fishes when compared to us, but may exhibit different behaviour towards us. A young great white may not decide to tackle as large prey as a fully-grown adult can.

The man instinctively looks down in the water to see where it went and, to his surprise and shock&awe he sees a great, white shark swimming just beneath him, within touching distance. It then dawns on him that what the dolphins are really doing is protecting them!" it's pretty clear what is happening.

(emphasis mine) How do you get from this sentence that the shark is actually aggressive? Unless, you think the mere pressence of the shark is enough to assume an attack? I think that is a dangerous assumption.

The mere fact that one of the dolphins suddenly came speeding towards them (dolphins are fast, agile swimmers) and that a great, white shark is 'within touching distance' (that's the length of a person's arm) should give a good idea of the significance of the dolphin's actions.

The significance of the dolphins' actions are not at stake here. They wanted to protect another species from a known enemy, massively good of them. But are we to assume the dolphins can never be wrong in their assessment? I find animal instincts fascinating, but that doesn't mean they're immediately always right. A risk of an attack is not the same as the reality of an attack. What I mean is, the fact that the dolphins took the humans into protection must not necessarily lead to the conclusion that the present great white shark was about to kill and eat the humans.

I think it's great that there are questions asked about this whole situation, but it seems to me that your underestimating what great white sharks are known to do when they meet humans. They don't merely smell your feet and tickle you. There have been many, many violent attacks off of the Australia/New Zealand coasts (especially involving surfers), as well as in South Africa (Durban is a renowned city for attacks on surfers), Argentina, etc (these are the places that I at least know of).

Oh, come on, Coffeehouse, I do start to think you've seen too many Jaws movies. 'cos seriously, great whites DO NOT always EAT people right away when they spot them. Sure, great whites aren't cute and cuddly, sure, they've bitten people + surfboard in half with a single bite, but they are predators, NOT mindless eating machines! Heck, sometimes they don't even like what we taste like, we don't make particularly good meals for them. Some of the fatal shark attacks occur not because the shark wanted to eat the swimmer, but because the injury sustained from the shark first taste/bite was too serious and the swimmers bled to death. Sometimes the shark misidentifies humans and breaks off the attack when it realises it's not the tasty seal it was after. I'm pretty sure these is far more common than right out, deliberate targetting of humans.

Do you think people would risk swimming with them if you got eaten right away? I know a great white possesses some eerie cutting equipment but they do not go out their way to prey on humans. So they don't always handle humans with care, I don't think they even can with those teeth but that doesn't implicate any malice towards us either. One can quite logically survive an encounter with a great white, even if it shows some remote interest in you. Otherwise the number of shark attacks by great whites would be far greater than it is now. A shark attack, depending on the species, is actually a relatively rare occurrance.

[Coffeehouse]

This is a post by Inked in the Theology IV thread, which I'll answer here.

Originally Posted by inked

Umm, CH, who exactly is observing evolution at the moment? And who has written the observations of its occurrence in real time that you are referring to?

Perhaps I misunderstand but I've always heard that it was a deductive theory based on an incomplete fossil record with a varitey of hypothesized missing links needed to confirm it. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it is not a valid deductive theoretical construct, in fact, I lean that way, BUT you seem to suggest an observational status that I am unaware of. Please elucidate.

Evolution is a lot more than incomplete fossil records Inked. A lot more. In fact if that is your perception of it, it would woefully inadequate, and I would recommend reading about evolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evoluti...lution_of_life).

I want to try to make this thread as scientifically sound as possible, so although I'm not a great admirer of quoting newspaper articles when it comes to precise science, this example does provide an example of real-time evolution by mutation of genes:

http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2007/06/...t-antibiotics/

Here's the relevant portion and I've highlighted important wording:
"The microbes that killed an unnamed patient seven years ago accumulated 35 separate genetic mutations during a 12-week hospital stay, allowing the bugs to thwart every antibiotic doctors threw at them, a painstaking scientific investigation has found."

Questions?

[Coffeehouse]

This is ridiculous Earniel.

Do you want to argue with me over the fact that you are unable to infer that the bay I mentioned is deep or not?

Or for the fact that you are unable to understand that when I write that it is a great, white shark that is somehow isn't large?

Or that you accuse me of seeing Jaws movies and thinking all shark attacks lead to deaths?

Or saying that I somehow think shark attacks are very common?

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Naturally, with intelligence comes self-awareness and if dolphins can exhibit graet empathy it's natural that they can exhibit the same degree of cruelty. We human beings are good examples of this

I don't think you've actually established "great empathy." I count that as observer's bias, in this highly anecdotal discussion.

[Earniel]

I'm sorry you feel this is ridiculous, I only wanted to discuss animal behaviour and maybe defend the sadly tarnished reputation of the great white.

I'm not arguing over the fact that I did not noticed that the bay was supposed to be deep. (I did not, mea culpa.) But I did not see the documentary, so I can only go on what I read of your account of it. But knowing whether the situation was in shallow waters or deep ones is a factor in interpreting the shark's behaviour.

A great white shark is IMO not the same as a great, white shark. The great white shark is - to my knowledge- the correct English name of the species charcharodon carcharias. I do not know of any other species that is referred to as white shark, but English is not my mothertongue, so there may well be one. So no, I will not automatically assume that a great white shark is also a large specimen. I don't think this is too far-fetched, really.

I did not say you said shark attacks were common, I only said that generally they are a rare occurance. But if you had no intention of insinuating that great white attacks are common, could you please explain how then I am to interpret this quote of yours:

[...]but it seems to me that your underestimating what great white sharks are known to do when they meet humans. They don't merely smell your feet and tickle you.[...]

[Coffeehouse]

I don't appreciate the way you've been arguing because it seems your more interested in contradicting what I'm writing than actually being curious.

If you were really candid about knowing more of the details you ask about them. It's quite simple.

An obvious example is that you in your first post ADMIT that a great white is large:
"And a great white is of course a very big fish!"
Later on suddenly size becomes an issue and your asking me to point out whether the shark was big after all!

You speculate about why the dolphins trash the water but you give no reason for what 45 minutes of violent trashing in the water then means if it isn't to protect the swimmers.

You speculate again and again whether the shark was hungry or not, when that is besides the point. The point of the entire story was that a great white was, at one point for sure, just underneath the lifeguard and only went away when a dolphin came speeding towards it. It's the dolphins behaviour that is the point of the story, not whether this particular white shark was going to eat them all.

Because I point out that shark attacks happen and deaths do occur, and that
surfers have been known to be particular targets, you infer that I've seen too
many Jaws movies, hint that I think they always eat people and that I think that they are mindless eating machines..

It's fascinating to see so much speculation and sarcasm in the space of a few posts concerning an incident you have no details about except the story I presented!

[Earniel]

EDIT: Re-opened after 24h cool-down period.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

So, how about some fruitfly research.
http://www.slate.com/id/2203120/

[Insidious Rex]

Couple of points regarding sharks and dolphins:

Point one: Lets reiterate here that Great White sharks do NOT tend to favor humans as far as their diet and the vast majority of attacks tend to be cases of mistaken identity. We have many more cases of great whites bumping a human or swimming around them and checking them out to see what the heck they are then actual cases of attacks.

Point two: Before we star making dolphins out to be some kind of super intelligent cerebral creatures with human emotions and such lets look at WHY this behavior may have occurred. Remember that altruism exists in nature even with species with very little intelligence. Ants come to mind. So altruism does not necessarily equal “empathy”. Be careful of anthropomorphisizing… And dolphins may exhibit this behavior because the idea of having blood in the water and a possible feeding frenzy is a danger to themselves and (especially) their young. So here comes a couple of clumsy slow plodding loud splashy humans swimming through the ocean attracting the attention of a shark. Perhaps to the dolphins the idea of scaring away the shark (and/or protecting the humans who clearly cant protect themselves in water) is worth the risk (dolphins very rarely get taken by sharks. They are much too agile) when the alternative is a blood bath that attracts sharks far and wide and gets them in a frenzied feeding craze. Just a possible speculation…