Where did Hobbits come from?

[GreyMouser]

No, I'm just so old that I've already thought about it long ago. What takes time is dredging it out of the dusty cellars of my memory

[trolls' bane]

Good answer.

[Surveyor]

Hobbits came out of Tolkien's sub-conscious. They just popped up outta nowhere out of his brain and landed right on a piece of paper in front of him: "In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit."

And then he had to figure out what a hobbit was.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Surveyor

Hobbits came out of Tolkien's sub-conscious. They just popped up outta nowhere out of his brain and landed right on a piece of paper in front of him: "In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit."

And then he had to figure out what a hobbit was.

That's what I've always understood, as well. That's precisely what Tolkien himself said, when explaining to people where his hobbits came from. I concur, Dr. Surveyor, and may I offer an additional - thing to this - hobbits also came from they mommas. As I explained the other day. From Tolkien's brilliant mind one day when he set out to write "The Hobbit," and then much later, after they'd been extant for a while, they took care of themselves by - by mating, mommas & poppas having baby hobbits and such.

Therefore, Hobbits came from they mommas.

[trolls' bane]

Err, right.

[Olmer]

All right. Now let’s look at all of this not from the memoirs of some particular Elves or Hobbits, but from a historical point of view, based on facts unintentionally given to us.
We don’t have an information of exactly from where the Hobbits “arrived”, but they definitely came to Endor from the East at the beginning of the Third Age. So, in the Second Age they were already somewhere there, probably, in a more Northern part of ME.
What do we have or had in North -East? The domains of so called Black forces: Mordor and Angband.
Also, from the “Unfinished Tales” and the HoME, XII, we are being informed that Men are remote ancestors of Hobbits and Druedains, small in stature, very hardy and strong woodland's people, who in the beginning of the First Age happened to come to live in Hithlum, which was side by side with Angband. Should be pointed out that the Druedains, just as Hobbits, were “not many”, and never seen before by Atani or Eldar.
Now, we have a question: how come that two diminutive and very specific branches of the human race has happened to appear inevitably not far away from the realms of the Dark Enemies?

I see the explanation in this way. The Druedains were, probably, the first Morgoth’s attempt of a breeding selection (just the same, as for Orks Morgoth was selecting the ugliest of captured elve's offsprings), where the criterias were of the smaller size, and a “capacity of utter silence and stillness” in which they could go on for days.
I think that the Hobbits came out as a more sophisticated reslut of Morgoth’s genetic experiment in order to create a perfect spies - careful and almost undetectable, able to penetrate through any crack, very quick and with an aim of natural-born killers, persistent , endurable, with weatherproof feet, which will allow to walk barefoot and therefore - soundlessly, and also being a highly loyal to those whom they will call "a Friend".

Unfortunately, his scientific innovations did not get a proper schooling and a trail testing, since Angband has been demolished, and a lot of “lab rats”, including the Hobbits, run away from its underground .
Note, that up to now the Hobbits feel themselves more comfortable while being in the holes, under the ground.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Olmer

All right. Now let’s look at all of this not from the memoirs of some particular Elves or Hobbits, but from a historical point of view, based on facts unintentionally given to us.
We don’t have an information of exactly from where the Hobbits “arrived”, but they definitely came to Endor from the East at the beginning of the Third Age. So, in the Second Age they were already somewhere there, probably, in a more Northern part of ME.
What do we have or had in North -East? The domains of so called Black forces: Mordor and Angband.
Also, from the “Unfinished Tales” and the HoME, XII, we are being informed that Men are remote ancestors of Hobbits and Druedains, small in stature, very hardy and strong woodland's people, who in the beginning of the First Age happened to come to live in Hithlum, which was side by side with Angband. Should be pointed out that the Druedains, just as Hobbits, were “not many”, and never seen before by Atani or Eldar.
Now, we have a question: how come that two diminutive and very specific branches of the human race has happened to appear inevitably not far away from the realms of the Dark Enemies?

I see the explanation in this way. The Druedains were, probably, the first Morgoth’s attempt of a breeding selection (just the same, as for Orks Morgoth was selecting the ugliest of captured elve's offsprings), where the criterias were of the smaller size, and a “capacity of utter silence and stillness” in which they could go on for days.
I think that the Hobbits came out as a more sophisticated reslut of Morgoth’s genetic experiment in order to create a perfect spies - careful and almost undetectable, able to penetrate through any crack, very quick and with an aim of natural-born killers, persistent , endurable, with weatherproof feet, which will allow to walk barefoot and therefore - soundlessly, and also being a highly loyal to those whom they will call "a Friend".

Unfortunately, his scientific innovations did not get a proper schooling and a trail testing, since Angband has been demolished, and a lot of “lab rats”, including the Hobbits, run away from its underground .
Note, that up to now the Hobbits feel themselves more comfortable while being in the holes, under the ground.

Wow, Olmer!! Olmer, how exciting, I haven't seen you in ages. This is an awesome theory. Very cool! wish you'd rop by more often; thanks for this cool post. It makes sense to me, especially the morgoth's experiment theory.

[trolls' bane]

w00t! I never would have thought of it. You ought to write a book on it. That would make an excellent part of the abstract.

[Olmer]

Nice to see that you are still hanging around, Lotesse
In my turn I promise to "rop by" more often, than I used to be.To come here and to talk about so familiar subjects is like to come home. And I have thought that Tolkien's rush is well behind. Alas! Seems it grew on me!
trolls' bane

You ought to write a book on it.

Thanks. It's a lot of people on this forum, who could do better. Did you read Valandil's stories?
And where is Gordis, BTW? All my analysys are getting pale in comparison with her systematic researches.

I want to add a little more to the “Hobbits origin” theory.
Considering an absence of their religion, and especially the absence of any kind of Eru and Valar’s worshiping , makes Hobbits frame of mind much closer to so called “dark races”, then to generations of Atani or Elves, and even Dwarves.
Sam’s use of word “Bless”, which is a religious wish to bring a favor from the Higher Power, might suggest that Hobbits have had some form of theirs religion in which was revered someone high and goodwilled. Not necessary that for them the possessor of such benevolence must be Eru. (Atani, by the way, took Numenorians for Gods.) But whom could Hobbits idolize , living at a North-East region, a traditional sphere of influence of Morgoth, Sauron and later The Witch-King? The answer is obvious…

By the way, the Hobbits have never had their own language, easily adopting languages of other races.
Of all people living in the western part of Middle Earth, only the Hobbits preserved a dim memories of the Land of Mordor. It tells me that somehow their ancestors had been quite familiar with that land, and Sauron knew about such race, because when he saw Gollum, he instinctively felt that this kind is of a very high resistance.…“He did not trust Gollum, for he divined something indomitable in him, which could not be overcome, even by the Shadow of Fear, exept by destroying him“…. (UT. The hunt for the Ring) Which means that he has been familiar with such types of creatures, maybe without knowing their new adopted name - the Hobbits.

[Gordis]

It is great to see you back, Olmer. Thank you for remembering me, I am honored by your kind words. I still check the Moot at least twice a week, but being very busy, I don't post now.

As for your theory, I find it interesting, but I don't really agree with it.

Firstly, I think there is no data to prove that the Hobbits originally came from the North - from Hithlum or somewhere around. More likely, they came from the East or South-East of ME. Hobbits had brown skin, that suggest their origins were in more sunny climate then the Shire or Hithlum. It is a rule for Men, it is also true for Orcs: Northern ones were white-skinned, southern were dark-skinned. It must hold true for hobbits as well. Also note that Sam heard about Olifaunts - from some old tales. Probably these remote tales came from the times when they dwelt in the South.

Secondly, it is mentioned that the origin of Hobbits lies in the "Dark years" and that is Second Age. There is not a single mention of the Hobbits in the rather well documented First Age. So, I think we can leave Morgoth out of it.

But not Sauron. He was at large for all of the Second Age. Since SA 1600 he had the Ring to help his experiments. His involvement in hobbit-breeding is possible. Also Sauron was the one who was in charge of orc-breeding in Angband under Morgoth, so he knew the matter well. Especially considering that in the case of the Hobbits we are likely dealing with simple artificial selection of the smallest and hardiest Men, not interbreeding between species or subspecies.
Likely Druedain were used as the base, may be some interbreeding with petty-Dwarves (like Mim) was involved. Note that the Petty- Dwarves "were banished in ancient days from the great Dwarf-cities of the east, and long before the return of Morgoth they wandered westward into Beleriand; but they became diminished in stature and in smith-craft, and they took to lives of stealth, walking with bowed shoulders and furtive steps." (Silm). Isn't it somewhat similar to the Hobbits?

And thirdly. We have to consider another likely "responsible" - Gandalf. Didn't he say "‘It is true all the same,’ replied Gandalf. ‘About their origins, at any rate, I know more than hobbits do themselves."
A slip of tongue?
Gandalf had a lot of foresight - more than he liked to admit. And the Valar who sent him could have had even much clearer glimpses of the future. Gandalf could have foreseen shortly after his arrival in ME that sometime in the future a race of stealthy creatures with exceptional resistance to magic would be needed to handle the Ring. So he started breeding hobbits and later slowly brought them to Eriador to wait until they would be needed.
Also let us remember that in the latest writings Tolkien considered changing the time of the arrival of the Istari to the ME - from TA 1000 to mid Second Age. Then Gandalf would have had plenty of time to breed anything he desired.

[Surveyor]

I don't think that Morgoth or Sauron had anything to do with the origin of Hobbits. After they became evil, Tolkien wrote that all of their attempts at creation were in mockery of what already existed. That is, they corrupted, not created.

Neither the Druedain or Hobbits had evil natures. They are both portrayed as more inherently virtuous than Men. Had Morgoth or Sauron bred them in some way, they would have had seriously tainted natures.

After all, what beings did Morgoth create (bred from existing beings created by others, that is)? Orcs, Trolls, Dragons, etc. All evil by nature. What did Sauron breed? Uruk-hai and Olog-hai.

My two or three cents.

[trolls' bane]

Both of those are interesting, and that part about the Bene Gandalf breeding program is intriguing.

[Olmer]

Hail! Lady of Ulari!
Glad you did not fade away.
Did we ever have been completely agreedable? But what makes our discussion is so interesting for me that we both looking at the matter from an exploratory point of view, thought not from equable plane.

is no data to prove that the Hobbits originally came from the North - from Hithlum or somewhere around.

I was not asserting the Hobbit's origin from the North, even if it's more likely. I was giving a comparison of strange similarities between two races of small people, which can't be dismissed by your correction about a much late Hobbit's arrival. It is too much of an unexplained likeness in theirs appearance, way of living...
Since we both agree that the title of the Great Experimentator belongs to Melkor, then the genefund was originated in the First Age, and a reason of a complete omission of the little quick creatures with furry feet could be that we learned the history of ME from the memoirs of Elves, who simply couldn't know too much what was going on in Angband's vicinitiy. But, seems to me still some information, somehow lingered through the ages to make a note that "the beginning of Hobbits lies far back in the Elder Days".(FoTR.Prologue) So, this leaves Gandalf off the hook.
I agree with you, considering their dim memories and Harfoot's darker skin, it's undeniably true,that the Dark Ages they spent somewhere more to South-East. My take that Sauron, an apt pupil, was "thinkering" with a gene pool left behind by Melkor

..." in the case of the Hobbits we are likely dealing with simple artificial selection of the smallest and hardiest Men, not interbreeding between species or subspecies."

I don't agree. Just by mention of " three somewhat different breeds " implies it has been the breeding, means hybridizing in order to develop particular genetic strains. A raw material for such modification could be the short people, the petty dwarves ( you are absolutely right),the orcs (Merry and Pippin not once have been taken for orcs) or the fairies (if you consider Took's family legend).

To Syrveyor
Tolkien was also saying that he was interpreting the information, which he happened to acquire through the translation of the Elves stories, and the Elves could be wrong about abilities of Valar.
Not so bright Aule created Dwarves, with help of Eru, but nevertheless created. "To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his bretheren." (Silmarillion"Ainulindalie")Considering that Melkor had talents surpassing all other Ainur,I wouldn't wright off the possibility of creation something of his own.
Besides, selection is a way of creation, which even mortals can do.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

the beginning of Hobbits lies far back in the Elder Days"[/B].(FoTR.Prologue) So, this leaves Gandalf off the hook.

Ah, Carcharoth's pelt! I could have sworn this quote held "the Dark Years" not "Elder Days". That is what happens when one relies on memory. My bad.
You are right and I was wrong, Olmer. Gandalf is out of it, and Morgoth could be in.

[Nurvingiel]

A Morgoth breeding program is a very interesting theory! You never fail to dissapoint Olmer. If that was so, isn't it ironic that Hobbits destroyed Morgoth's plans in the end (by destroying the Ring)?

But, why didn't Hobbits turn out evil like Orcs did?

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

A Morgoth breeding program is a very interesting theory! You never fail to dissapoint Olmer. If that was so, isn't it ironic that Hobbits destroyed Morgoth's plans in the end (by destroying the Ring)?

But, why didn't Hobbits turn out evil like Orcs did?

If I were to guess. Hobbits turned out to be a failed experiment, unlike the orcs.

Interesting theory yes. Although I do not think it is likely. (as always Olmer comes up with points that are plausible.)

[Jon S.]

There's no need to invent a demi-god's intelligent design when natural selection works fine (though it can be fun to hypothesize).

Sometimes a pygmy is just a pygmy (I think it was Mr. Occam who said that ).

[Olmer]

Jon S

Sometimes a pygmy is just a pygmy.

Yes, you could "shave off" other possibilities. Very probable that right from the beginning Eru did not have much material to create all men equally.
mithrand1r

Hobbits turned out to be a failed experiment, unlike the orcs

I would not say "failed", theirs capabilities for spying are perfect.I think they did not have enough time schooling for a "political correctness", not became "dark" enough.
Besides, how evil orcs were we know by description of two scared and confused hobbits, whose ears were tightly stuffed with stories about orcs evilness. But this is already different subject.
Nurvingiel

If that was so, isn't it ironic that Hobbits destroyed Morgoth's plans in the end (by destroying the Ring)?

"Thou Melko shall see that no theme can be played save it come in the end of Iluvatar’s self, nor can any alter the music in Iluvatar’s despite.He that attempts this finds himself in the end but aiding me in devising a thing of still greater grandeur and more complex wonder." (“Silmarills“)So, even any Morgoth's evil-doing was “written” by Illuvatar, means that he was planning for bad things to happen. And incorporation of the Ring was done with his approval. Hobbits were the chess-pieces in Eru's game.

[Landroval]

I have problems seeing hobbits as creatures of Morgoth. Concerning them, Tolkien stated:

Originally Posted by Letter #109

I think that there is no horror conceivable that such creatures cannot surmount, by grace (here appearing in mythological forms) combined with a refusal of their nature and reason at the last pinch to compromise or submit.

Originally Posted by Footnote to Letter #131

They are entirely without non-human powers, but are represented as being more in touch with 'nature' (the soil and other living things, plants and animals), and abnormally, for humans, free from ambition or greed of wealth.

Now all the bolded parts represent thoroughly anti-Morgoth qualities, who cultivated in his subjects worshipping of evil, submission, propensity towards Machine and other evil traits.

[captain carrot]

Originally Posted by Olmer

"Thou Melko shall see that no theme can be played save it come in the end of Iluvatar’s self, nor can any alter the music in Iluvatar’s despite.He that attempts this finds himself in the end but aiding me in devising a thing of still greater grandeur and more complex wonder." (“Silmarills“)

So, even any Morgoth's evil-doing was “written” by Illuvatar, means that he was planning for bad things to happen. And incorporation of the Ring was done with his approval. Hobbits were the chess-pieces in Eru's game.

by that intepretation Lord Olmer, there can be no free will, nor morality nor any responsibility,

but anyway, it certainly wasn't Morgoth's plan!!


For a creationist world model, the question Where did Hobbits come from? seems rather odd.