Was Hitler Christian,Athiest,Savior-Madman) FACTS welcomed along with your opinions

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I would very much like to hear your oma's first-hand account of what she believed of the Nazis at that time, and on what evidence she believed what she did.

Lief, based on my previous conversations with her and opa about the war, she has stated on more than one occasion that she was aware of the "death" camps during the war. I don't think she was aware of the scale of the persecution, but certainly, she knew that there were disappearances.

You will understand that given that her husband has just passed away, I will not be pestering her directly about this, though.

In any case, since you like "evidence" :

Germans knew of Holocaust horror about death camps

Details of deaths of Jews and other groups in concentration camps were well publicised

John Ezard
Saturday February 17, 2001
The Guardian

The mass of ordinary Germans did know about the evolving terror of Hitler's Holocaust, according to a new research study. They knew concentration camps were full of Jewish people who were stigmatised as sub-human and race-defilers. They knew that these, like other groups and minorities, were being killed out of hand.
They knew that Adolf Hitler had repeatedly forecast the extermination of every Jew on German soil. They knew these details because they had read about them. They knew because the camps and the measures which led up to them had been prominently and proudly reported step by step in thousands of officially-inspired German media articles and posters according to the study, which is due to be published simultaneously in Britain and the US early next month and which was described as ground-breaking by Oxford University Press yesterday and already hailed by other historians.

Rest here.

[BeardofPants]

Lotesse, Hitler also said, "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." -- April, 1922.

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Well, it becomes a bit more understandable on the part of the Christians in Germany when one considers that the Gestapo were in full power at this time. There would have been an element of fear that I don't think exists in modern society.

And you don't think that moderate muslims would fear being executed by extremists for their views, or for having western sympathies?

[Lotesse]

O.k., the following is an excerpt from a well-researched essay explaining Hitler's christianity and church ties -

Hitler’s involvement with the Church:

a) Hitler was baptized as Roman Catholic during infancy in Austria.

b) As Hitler approached boyhood he attended a monastery school. (On his way to school young Adolf daily observed a stone arch which was carved with the monastery’s coat of arms bearing a swastika.)

c) Hitler was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church.

d) As a young man he was confirmed as a “soldier of Christ.” His most ardent goal at the time was to become a priest. Hitler writes of his love for the church and clergy: “I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.” -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

e) Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church. Matter of fact the Church felt he was JUST and “avenging for God” in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus.

f) Hitler, Franco and Mussolini were given VETO power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy. In turn they surtaxed the Catholics and gave the money to the Vatican. Hitler wrote a speech in which he talks about this alliance, this is an excerpt: “The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie.” Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party

g) Hitler worked CLOSELY with Pope Pius in converting Germanic society and supporting the church. The Church absorbed Nazi ideals and preached them as part of their sermons in turn Hitler placed Catholic teachings in public education.


This photo depicts Hitler with Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin. It was taken On April 20, 1939, when Orsenigo celebrated Hitler’s birthday. The celebrations were initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) and became a tradition.

Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send “warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany with “fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars.” (If you would like to know more about the secret dealings of Hitler and the Pope I recommend you get a book titled: Hitler’s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell)

h) Due to Hitler’s involvement with the Church he began enacting doctrines of the Church as law. He outlawed all abortion, raged a death war on all homosexuals, and demanded corporal punishment in schools and home. Many times Hitler addressed the church and promised that Germany would implement its teachings: “The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavor to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today.” –Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934, to Catholic bishops to assure them that he would take action against the new pagan propaganda “Providence has caused me to be Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church.” -Adolf Hitler, reportedly to have said in Berlin in 1936 on the enmity of the Catholic Church to National Socialism


How Christianity was the catalyst of the Holocaust:

Hitler’s anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Austria and Germany were majorly Christian during his time and they held the belief that Jews were an inferior status to Aryan Christians. The Christians blamed the Jews for the killing of Jesus. Jewish hatred did not actually spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, “On the Jews and their Lies,” Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War 2. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther constantly quoting his works and beliefs.

Now, you must remember before Hitler rose to Chancellor of Germany the country was in a deep economic depression due to the Versailles treaty. The Versailles treaty demanded that Germans made financial reparations for the previous war and Germany simply was not self sufficient enough in order to pay the debt. Hitler was the leader that raised Germany out of the depression and brought them back to a world recognized power. Due to his annulment of the financial woes of the Germanic people he became their redeemer and they anointed him as the leader of the German Reich Christian Church in 1933. This placed him in power of the German Christian Socialist movement which legislates their political and religious agendas. It united all denominations, mainly the Protestant/Catholic and Lutheran people to instill faith in a national Christianity.


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Perhaps, Gwaimir, Hitler was feeling fed up with being christian by 1941, or his heavy drug use and increasing tyrannical craziness was causing him to start to vacillate on what his ideas, beliefs and desires were, but for his entire life, he had claimed christianity and been an active part of the church. By 1941, which is three years before his death & the end of the Nazi Party's reign, the damage had already been done from this "back-sliding" christian. Who knows, maybe he said some prayers to himself before he bit that cyanide capsule, in the hopes that at the last minute, he could get rescued by god & avoid hell. Who knows. Anyway, the point I am trying to make with all this about hitler's christianity is to show that great evils have been done with the mantle of christianity, just as with islam today. And also what The Gaffer said yesterday; he hit the nail on the head:

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Nah, we can bring all this together by thinking about how Christendom, in guilt and horror at the Holocaust, has transplanted much of its fear and loathing onto Islam.

Recently, of course, we have seen this refocused more sharply for political ends. And that, in the end, is the only meaningful parallel with Hitler: exploiting and inflaming existing prejudices for political gain. If we allow them to get away with it, then the lessons of Nazism have not been learned.

Belt buckle worn by the Nazi German soldiers:

"God With Us"

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

O.k., the following is an excerpt from a well-researched essay explaining Hitler's christianity and church ties -

Hitler’s involvement with the Church:

a) Hitler was baptized as Roman Catholic during infancy in Austria.

b) As Hitler approached boyhood he attended a monastery school. (On his way to school young Adolf daily observed a stone arch which was carved with the monastery’s coat of arms bearing a swastika.)

c) Hitler was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church.

To all of this, so what? These say very, very little of anything about Hitler. A and B were certainly not decided by him, and it is unlikely that C was, either.

d) As a young man he was confirmed as a “soldier of Christ.” His most ardent goal at the time was to become a priest. Hitler writes of his love for the church and clergy: “I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.” -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

This was, again, 'As a young man', i.e. BEFORE he became the Hitler we all know and love.

e) Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church. Matter of fact the Church felt he was JUST and “avenging for God” in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus.

As regards the first sentence, he was condemned. Pope Pius XI published the encyclical Mit Brennender Sorge IN GERMAN (virtually all documents from Rome, especially back then, were published in Latin) The last sentence is a flat out lie, and I am ashamed that someone would stoop so low as to post it here.

f) Hitler, Franco and Mussolini were given VETO power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy. In turn they surtaxed the Catholics and gave the money to the Vatican. Hitler wrote a speech in which he talks about this alliance, this is an excerpt: “The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie.” Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party

As to whether or not they were given "VETO power", I don't know. I doubt it, as it runs contrary to the nature of the Church to allow such things, (see China and the Investiture Controversy), but I suppose they might make such concessions under necessity. As regards Hitler's quote, he is wrong.

g) Hitler worked CLOSELY with Pope Pius in converting Germanic society and supporting the church. The Church absorbed Nazi ideals and preached them as part of their sermons in turn Hitler placed Catholic teachings in public education.

This photo depicts Hitler with Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin. It was taken On April 20, 1939, when Orsenigo celebrated Hitler’s birthday. The celebrations were initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) and became a tradition.

One of Hitler's favourite ways to support the Catholic Church was to dedicate concentration camps to housing her clergy and religious. This show of generosity demonstrates the self-giving love he had for the Church.

Bottom line: He did NOT support the Church, he persecuted her. It is I suppose quite likely that certain churchmen preached Nazi ideals, but the Church did not. I highly doubt that Hitler placed Catholic teaching in public education; this was a primarily Lutheran country, though Catholics were a large minority.

Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send “warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany with “fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars.” (If you would like to know more about the secret dealings of Hitler and the Pope I recommend you get a book titled: Hitler’s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell)

I am a bit dubious as to the truth of this, but if it is true, it would be merely a concession.

h) Due to Hitler’s involvement with the Church he began enacting doctrines of the Church as law. He outlawed all abortion, raged a death war on all homosexuals, and demanded corporal punishment in schools and home. Many times Hitler addressed the church and promised that Germany would implement its teachings: “The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavor to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today.” –Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934, to Catholic bishops to assure them that he would take action against the new pagan propaganda “Providence has caused me to be Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church.” -Adolf Hitler, reportedly to have said in Berlin in 1936 on the enmity of the Catholic Church to National Socialism

This is a bald-faced lie. Hitler did not outlaw all abortion, only for those subject which would be likely to produce a 'racially desirable' offspring. He said of the conquered lands that "the families of the native populations are so large that it can only suit us if as many girls and women as possible have abortions."
He raged a war against homosexuals, yes, but that is something the Catholic Church does not do.
As to coporal punishment, while I believe in it, it is hardly Church teaching.

Perhaps, Gwaimir, Hitler was feeling fed up with being christian by 1941, or his heavy drug use and increasing tyrannical craziness was causing him to start to vacillate on what his ideas, beliefs and desires were, but for his entire life, he had claimed christianity and been an active part of the church.

Not so.

By 1941, which is three years before his death & the end of the Nazi Party's reign, the damage had already been done from this "back-sliding" christian.

Four years, innit? 1945-1941 by my count = 4. But anyway, it was earlier than that. "The Führer is deeply religious, though completely anti-Christian,” Joseph Goebbels, the minister of propaganda, wrote in his diary on December 28, 1939." This is supported by a lot of websites; I was suspicious myself when I first saw it, but it seems to be true.

Who knows, maybe he said some prayers to himself before he bit that cyanide capsule, in the hopes that at the last minute, he could get rescued by god & avoid hell.

Maybe he did.

Who knows. Anyway, the point I am trying to make with all this about hitler's christianity is to show that great evils have been done with the mantle of christianity, just as with islam today. And also what The Gaffer said yesterday; he hit the nail on the head:

Well, define your term. What does it mean to do something with the mantle of Christianity?

EDIT: I think this remark was inappropriate.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Spock

Was Hitler an atheist as some Christians say he was? Hitler's own words make this claim rather dubious. Scholars are still unsure whether or not Adolf Hitler was a believing Christian or just a politically cunning theist, but what is certain however is there is no evidence he was an atheist.

As quoted from the same source.

Actually, thanks for this quote, Spock. (did I actually just thank the vulcan? ) But this quote you posted here kind of sums it up. The bottom line is, he said he was a christian, and acted as a christian, and acted within and with the approval of the church & christians in his country, etcetera, so - whether or not in this man's heart of hearts he really believed in Jesus and the christian tenets is kind of irrelevent - isn't it? Does Osama bin Laden believe in his heart of hearts in Mohammed & Allah, or is he just using Islam to furthur his own agenda? Who knows. If we asked him, he'd probably lie anyway, right? But what bin Laden is doing is using the Islamic religion to furthur his own terrorist agenda, because it works for him, just as Hitler using Christianity to furthur his agenda worked for him. See the parallel?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Please stay on topic. I notice a lot of posts about Hitler, World War II and christianity. All of those topics can be discussed in more appropriate threads.

Eh-heh. Sorry, you must have posted that while I was writing the above long post. My bad. I noted that we were off-topic, but I thought that, since we'd been so off-topic for what seems to be several days, we'd given up on it in this thread. Authority of custom, and all that.

Spock, indeed, Hitler certainly does not seem to have been an atheist, either.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Actually, thanks for this quote, Spock. (did I actually just thank the vulcan? ) But this quote you posted here kind of sums it up. The bottom line is, he said he was a christian, and acted as a christian, and acted within and with the approval of the church & christians in his country, etcetera

Only the first of your bottom lines is accurate.

RE-EDIT: Attempt to stay on the Muslim track edited out.

Good call, mods.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Lotesse, Hitler also said, "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." -- April, 1922.

That's 1922, BoP. I think it's clear from an abundance of later evidence that he was wrong when he said that.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

But in conclusion, it makes me very sad that you seem to have such hatred for Christianity that you will clutch at any straw to flaunt in the face of Christ, and instantly jump upon any means of condemning Christianity. I am sincerely sorry for that

Why does it make you sad? Oh, and incidentally, don't be sad! I no more hate Christianity than I do Islam, or Hindu, or Judaism, or Buddhism, or any other religion. I dislike organised religion, period, and always have, and that is my perogative - don't be sad! However, whether or not Lotsy loves or hates religion hasd nothing to do with the facts at hand. Try not to be insulting, please, Gwaimir. If all you can say in response to the very thorough post I answered you with is to say that it makes you sad that I have such hatred for christianity," then...

I actually do really resent you telling me that I will "clutch at any straw to flaunt in the face of Christ," that is insulting. At least I made the effort to give you a very well researched and elaborate essay in response to your posts. And for the record, I love Christ, he was an awesome figure of history; his teachings were gentle, wise and beautiful. Mohammed was an awesome, brilliant man too, I hear, although I haven't read the Koran. I read the bible very thoroughly, though, and studied it to pieces while I was growing up. It is a beautiful masterpiece, very fascinating and brilliant writing and ideas in the bible. So please don't accuse me of being filled with hatred. You could not be furthur from the truth on that one. I want peace in the world, not violence and hate in the name of some god.



The whole reason why I even pursued the Was Hitler Christian argument here was to prove my point from the beginning that all the major religions of the world have been guilty of massive evils against humanity, not just today's fundy Islam, and not just the Crusades. That Islam is no more capable of evil - as a religion - than is Christianity. Gwaimir, I don't try to insult you or your religion, please try to refrain from insulting me and my ideas.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

EDIT: Ack! I have to put my response back on again! And I don't still have it! From scratch it is

Why does it make you sad? Oh, and incidentally, don't be sad! I no more hate Christianity than I do Islam, or Hindu, or Judaism, or Buddhism, or any other religion. I dislike organised religion, period, and always have, and that is my perogative - don't be sad! However, whether or not Lotsy loves or hates religion hasd nothing to do with the facts at hand. Try not to be insulting, please, Gwaimir.

Confiteor Deo omnipotenti...quia peccavi nimis cogitatione, verbo, et opere. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

I recognize my fault in posting that remark, and I sincerely apologise. I should not have said it. It was uncharitable and cruel, and I ask your forgiveness.

If all you can say in response to the very thorough post I answered you with is to say that it makes you sad that I have such hatred for christianity," then...

I do take exception to this, however. That is not all I can say, as illustrated by my detailed point-by-point post, and I think it wrong of you to make it out that it is all I can respond. I did ask for it, I suppose, in being uncharitable first, but at least I retracted and repented of my own volition.

I actually do really resent you telling me that I will "clutch at any straw to flaunt in the face of Christ," that is insulting. At least I made the effort to give you a very well researched and elaborate essay in response to your posts. And for the record, I love Christ, he was an awesome figure of history; his teachings were gentle, wise and beautiful. Mohammed was an awesome, brilliant man too, I hear, although I haven't read the Koran. Read the bible very thoroughly, though, and studied it to pieces while I was growing up. It is a beautiful masterpiece, very fascinating and brilliant writing and ideas in the bible. So please don't accuse me of being filled with hatred. You could not be furthur from the truth on that one. I want peace in the world, not violence and hate in the name of some god.

Well, rats. I was going to say "in the face of the Pope", but the Protestants were on the defense, too, and I didn't want to exclude. Just goes to show that you can't please anyone. But seriously, though the whole thing was retracted, I especially retract this remark.

The whole reason why I even pursued the Was Hitler Christian argument here was to prove my point from the beginning that all the major religions of the world have been guilty of massive evils against humanity, not just today's fundy Islam, and not just the Crusades. That Islam is no more capable of evil - as a religion - than is Christianity. So put your pompous insult-stick away, please. I don't try to insult you or your religion, please try to refrain from insulting me and my ideas.

On that, I would disagree. Neither Christianity, nor Judaism, nor Islam (fundy or otherwise) has been guilty of evils. Members of those religions are.

But also, it seems that the reason you were pursuing was not to merely say that major religions (for which, in the present discussion, we may substitute 'Christianity', though other religions would be appropriate substitutions at other times) were guilty of evils against humanity aside from the Crusades, but specifically that the Holocaust may be placed at the feet of Rome, which I disagree with.

[Lotesse]

I never said that the Holocaust could be placed at the feet of Rome. I also do not think that modern terrorism should be placed at the feet of Mecca. But Christianity was and is utilised by evil men to furthur political agendas, just as Islam was and is utilised by evil men to furthur political agendas. Hitler, bin Laden, whatever.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Quite the dance of post, edit, and re-post we're having here, eh?

You did, in an indirect sort of way. Of course, that undercurrent ran throughout, but especially here: "e) Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church. Matter of fact the Church felt he was JUST and “avenging for God” in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus."

You very nearly state explicitly that Hitler was acting in perfect accordance with the will of Rome.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

EDIT: Ack! I have to put my response back on again! And I don't still have it! From scratch it is



Confiteor Deo omnipotenti...quia peccavi nimis cogitatione, verbo, et opere. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

I recognize my fault in posting that remark, and I sincerely apologise. I should not have said it. It was uncharitable and cruel, and I ask your forgiveness.






On that, I would disagree. Neither Christianity, nor Judaism, nor Islam (fundy or otherwise) has been guilty of evils. Members of those religions are.

Thank you for apologising to me! I appreciate that.

That second statement, that's I guess sort of like "Guns don't kill people; people with guns kill people" or however that gun slogan goes. Religions don't kill people; people with religions kill people. Well, you get the general idea I'm trying to convey! So on that statement I agree with you, although it seems like kind of a point of semantics now.

But thanks for retracting that statement. At first, it really had hurt my feelings! But it's all good now.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Thank you for apologising to me! I appreciate that.

That second statement, that's I guess sort of like "Guns don't kill people; people with guns kill people" or however that gun slogan goes. Religions don't kill people; people with religions kill people. Well, you get the general idea I'm trying to convey! So on that statement I agree with you, although it seems like kind of a point of semantics now.

But thanks for retracting that statement. At first, it really had hurt my feelings! But it's all good now.

I'm glad to hear that.

[Blackheart]

Hilarious.

Hitler wasn't any more a Christian than George Bush is.

Politicians don't have religious convictions unless it gains them power. When it gains them power then they can become fanatical, and inspire fanaticism. (Of course this isn't limited to religion by any means, maoism and stalinism are recent examples of personality cults)

You can tell Hitler's convictions by looking at his actions: expansion of empire. An empire has to be built on a power base, and the one that he chose, or happened upon, was Teutonic pride.

Anti-semitism is something hardly new in Europe. It has become internalized. One of the easiest ways to build up a power base is to look for a scapegoat, to "elevate" your power base. It was a handy tool to grab more power, that also probably tied into some of his own psychotic fears.

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_325b.html

That's the sort of thing that happens when your physician is feeding you a daily cocktail of methamphetamines... Paranoia becomes an overriding concern.

http://amphetamines.com/adolf-hitler.html

In short, he was a psychotic/charismatic politician (you can easily translate that as evil, but it's an oversimplification) with deep seated childhood traumas and insecurities and an amphetamine addiction who happened to come from a christain society, and the internalized conflict that comes with it.

What difference does it make that it was a christian society? Would the results have been any less tragic if it had been a Mulsim society, or hindu, or taoist, or atheist/secular?

Not really.

There are plenty of "Hitlers" throught history, from diverse cultures. He just happens to be one of the most well known.

It isn't a religious phenomenon, it's a human phenomenon.

Which means that no matter what religious or secular system is in place, things like this will continue to happen, at least until humanity changes at some fundamental level.

If you want RELEVANT discussion, you should see if you can spot the next madman. I would indeed wager that he (or she) will come from an islamic society, the conditions are ripe for someone of sufficient charisma and twisted drive to add another chapter to mankind's glorious history...

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Quite the dance of post, edit, and re-post we're having here, eh?

You did, in an indirect sort of way. Of course, that undercurrent ran throughout, but especially here: "e) Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church. Matter of fact the Church felt he was JUST and “avenging for God” in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus."

You very nearly state explicitly that Hitler was acting in perfect accordance with the will of Rome.

O.K., so you're right, I suppose I did. Maybe he was! The church definitely seemed to approve of his ideology. Yes, I believe the Nazi Party and Hitler were very much supported by Rome, AND by Protestant Christians in general, for decades before Hitler even came on the scene.

I really need to get out of here & go to work; my whole day is being poured into this argument. I can't believe how much of the day has already gone by. Must log off. I'll be back by later on tonight, or tomorrow! Ciao!

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Hilarious.

Hitler wasn't any more a Christian than George Bush is.

Politicians don't have religious convictions unless it gains them power. When it gains them power then they can become fanatical, and inspire fanaticism. (Of course this isn't limited to religion by any means, maoism and stalinism are recent examples of personality cults)

You can tell Hitler's convictions by looking at his actions: expansion of empire. An empire has to be built on a power base, and the one that he chose, or happened upon, was Teutonic pride.

Anti-semitism is something hardly new in Europe. It has become internalized. One of the easiest ways to build up a power base is to look for a scapegoat, to "elevate" your power base. It was a handy tool to grab more power, that also probably tied into some of his own psychotic fears.

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_325b.html

That's the sort of thing that happens when your physician is feeding you a daily cocktail of methamphetamines... Paranoia becomes an overriding concern.

http://amphetamines.com/adolf-hitler.html

In short, he was a psychotic/charismatic politician (you can easily translate that as evil, but it's an oversimplification) with deep seated childhood traumas and insecurities and an amphetamine addiction who happened to come from a christain society, and the internalized conflict that comes with it.

What difference does it make that it was a christian society? Would the results have been any less tragic if it had been a Mulsim society, or hindu, or taoist, or atheist/secular?

Not really.

There are plenty of "Hitlers" throught history, from diverse cultures. He just happens to be one of the most well known.

It isn't a religious phenomenon, it's a human phenomenon.

Which means that no matter what religious or secular system is in place, things like this will continue to happen, at least until humanity changes at some fundamental level.

If you want RELEVANT discussion, you should see if you can spot the next madman. I would indeed wager that he (or she) will come from an islamic society, the conditions are ripe for someone of sufficient charisma and twisted drive to add another chapter to mankind's glorious history...

Thanks for this excellent, awesome post, Blackheart! I agree with you very much, about the Hitler was no more a christian than is george Bush - but look, they both use religion to furthur their ends and advance their agenda. They both claim(ed) Christianity. Bush uses God all the time, just like Hitler did. Awesome post! Now I really, really must log off.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

O.K., so you're right, I suppose I did. Maybe he was! The church definitely seemed to approve of his ideology. Yes, I believe the Nazi Party and Hitler were very much supported by Rome, AND by Protestant Christians in general, for decades before Hitler even came on the scene.

I really need to get out of here & go to work; my whole day is being poured into this argument. I can't believe how much of the day has already gone by. Must log off. I'll be back by later on tonight, or tomorrow! Ciao!

But what of the fact that the Pope released an encyclical, during occupation, condemning Nazism, and even going so far as to break with a solidly established norm (which Rome thrives on) and publish it in German, rather than Latin?

I'm not quite certain how Hitler could be supported by the Church for decades before he came on the scene...?

Anyway, I await your response to my response to your point-by-point post.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

If you want RELEVANT discussion, you should see if you can spot the next madman. I would indeed wager that he (or she) will come from an islamic society, the conditions are ripe for someone of sufficient charisma and twisted drive to add another chapter to mankind's glorious history...

Back, just for a quick second -

*raises hand* Ooo, oo - I can guess the next madman! Maybe it's Bush! And he uses Christianity. Not Islam. Both Islam and Christianity are waging war with "each other," in this century, right now, as we speak. The West, with Christianity, against the East, with Islam. Organised religion is utilised by both major religions to furthur evil ends.

I'd like to discuss this post with you, too, Blackheart, when I come back later on & I have the time.