Israeli Territory Pull Outs

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Spock

2. it's not an illegal occupation, it is the result of a war unwanted and fought to preserve Israel, it's called "you lost".

and of course this is the kind of backwards thinking attitude that pushes average people to support terrorism because they feel they have nothing else. If you simply want to taunt the "losers" and keep them permenantly disinfranchised because "they lost" then you better be willing to sleep in your bed of suicide bombers and terrorism.

The United States gives over $100 million annually in foreign aid to the Palestinian Authority

wanna compare that to how many countless billions of dollars we give to Israel each and every year? What was that you said about being able to found a state under their own power again?

What the he** do they do with all that money....oh I know, it's in Arafats daughters account in Switzerland to help pay for her parisian flings.

Its been readily aknowlegded that the palestinian authority has its issues with corruption. In fact I already mentioned it before you started spouting off about how all palestinians are terrorists and thieves. But last time I checked the Arafat regime was over. And Abbas will get no where without outside help on a grand scale. Its now or never.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Spock

No. In fact we here still view the north in an unfavorable light for those times. It's just that heavy handedness comes with the side that wins, it's been that way in almost all conflicts down through the ages.

Spock, that doesn't make it right or acceptable. Note that World War 2 would never have happened if not for this "oppress the defeated" attitude. And when the United States conquered Berlin after that war, it healed the land and thus brought peace and wealth to a ruined region. This established good relations between Germany and the United States that have held for a long time.

Originally Posted by Spock

And so does the U.S. As for the U.N. it is un necessary. No teeth, no backbone and if it were never sidestepped or ignored, whole countries would have disappeared in recent years, not to mention Israel in decades past.

Nonetheless, the United Nations does serve a useful role in giving international validity to various actions. At the same time as the United Nations acknowledged Israel's statehood, it required that Israel allow the Palestinians who fled or were expelled from their homes to return to them. Instead, Israel filled Palestinian villages with its own settlers and bulldozed those dwellings they couldn't use. This was done in part because it was necessary. If the Palestinians were allowed to remain, Israel would not have a Jewish majority.

It's injustice, Spock. It also means that Israel does have an important responsibility for these people that are crushed into the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Also, this history explains why Palestinians that resist the larger and more powerful Israel are often viewed by their people as heroes. It explains why Hamas has so much support from Palestinians, in part. They also support it because they believe it not nearly so corrupt as the PA, and I expect they're correct about that.

Originally Posted by Spock

Several sites on the www have the information, mine came from:

http://www.aaiusa.org/foreign_aid.htm

Oh, and I know there are much more recent figures but this was a more comprehensive and concise quote so I used it.

Thanks .

[The Gaffer]

Hear hear!

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

And when the United States conquered Berlin after that war, it healed the land and thus brought peace and wealth to a ruined region. This established good relations between Germany and the United States that have held for a long time.

When are we ever going to learn the lessons of history?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

When are we ever going to learn the lessons of history?

probably never... good points though lief

[Lief Erikson]

There would be no discussion here without Spock. He is boldly taking everyone on without any people to back him up, and I give him a thumbs up for that!

[The Gaffer]

I don't agree with you there (that there would be no discussion without Spock's contrary opinion)!

A contrary opinion is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for an interesting discussion. Often, a contrary opinion is merely a tactic to prevent constructive discussion and direct it in a particularl way. (I'm not saying that's what's going on in this instance, btw.) But the most interesting discussions I've seen and been involved in have been amongst people with broadly similar views.

[Lief Erikson]

When I'm talking with people face to face, my experience is the same. Discussions don't require disagreement- in fact, they're often better off without it. On Entmoot, though . . .

I don't know about you, but whenever I've seen a conversation shift from disagreement to agreement, everything often collapses into silliness. That's just been my experience here.

Also, I still think it's brave of Spock to take the stance he is in the face of universal disagreement. I applaud that courage.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

When are we ever going to learn the lessons of history?

Like Brownjenkins says, probably never. You're reminding me of the book of Ecclesiasties. Solomon wrote in it, "what has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun."

[Lief Erikson]

Originally written on BBC News

Israel hails end of Gaza pullout

The Netzarim settlers were tearful but defiant.

The removal of 8,500 Israelis from 21 settlements in the Gaza Strip is effectively complete, Israel's army commander in the region has said.
Just two Jewish families remained in Gaza, at the settlement of Netzarim, Major-General Dan Harel announced.

After tearful prayers, Netzarim residents boarded buses vowing one day to return and rebuild their community.

Stiff resistance is expected in the West Bank, when forced eviction starts at two settlements on Tuesday.


"Except for two families now in the settlement of Netzarim, and who will be evacuated imminently, we have today completed the evacuation of the Israeli settler presence in the Gaza Strip," Maj-Gen Harel said on a tour of the settlement.

Thousands of troops are now being redeployed to the West Bank for the final piece of the operation.

[Spock]

.....and now for something completely different......

-M.P.-

[Rían]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Hear hear!
When are we ever going to learn the lessons of history?

never

But the most interesting discussions I've seen and been involved in have been amongst people with broadly similar views.

really? which ones?
*thinks* well, I guess I can kind of see what you mean - kind of like filling in different aspects of a picture?

[Lief Erikson]

. . . and now the Gaza pull-out is concluded. I'm impressed that it was done completely without any clashes between soldiers and protesters. The only deaths throughout the operation were two Israeli terrorist attacks on Palestinian civilians. When all those thousands of protesters went into Gaza, I really thought it would require a pitched battle to get them out.

[MrBishop]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

. . . and now the Gaza pull-out is concluded. I'm impressed that it was done completely without any clashes between soldiers and protesters. The only deaths throughout the operation were two Israeli terrorist attacks on Palestinian civilians. When all those thousands of protesters went into Gaza, I really thought it would require a pitched battle to get them out.

Well hidden battles and well hidden acts of violence, including the firebombing of a bulldozer with the driver still in it, by an Israeli no less. Can't let it be known that some Israelis would get violent or do 'terrorist-like activities'. That'd be...unconscionable.

Settlers and army clash in W Bank
There have been clashes between Israeli troops in the West Bank and Jewish settlers or their supporters.
The Israeli army is due to evict the residents of two settlements in the northern West Bank, Sanur and Homesh, starting on Tuesday.

The army began on Monday deploying 5,000 soldiers to deal with an estimated 2,000 right-wing Jewish activists expected to oppose eviction.

The residents of two other settlements have already left voluntarily.

Soldiers injured

Settlers and their supporters hurled stones and slashed tyres of military vehicles on the outskirts of Sanur, on Sunday.

Heavy earthmoving equipment and steam rollers were seen clearing the ground around Sanur in order to allow the security forces a clear approach to the settlement, on Sunday.


Israeli media reports say about 100 people, mainly teenagers, ran out of Sanur and attacked army bulldozers.

Some of the protesters slashed the tires of at least three army jeeps. Police and the military said 10 officers were slightly injured.

One soldier was taken to hospital after being beaten by settlers from Homesh.

Eight masked Jewish activists attacked an army tractor in the northern West Bank, near the settlement of Kedumim, due south of Homesh, near Nablus.

The attackers slashed the tractor's tires and set it on fire while a soldier was still in the vehicle, the Israeli media reported.

The Haaretz newspaper also reported that an empty Israeli army post was burnt to the ground.

'Weapons stockpiles'

Police said 12 settlers were arrested in the various incidents. The military said 87 people were detained, apparently trying to reach Homesh and Sanur.

The head of the Israeli army, Lt Gen Dan Halutz, said settlers in the two settlements were stockpiling some weapons.

"There are stun grenades, and things of that sort, I hope there are no bombs," he told Israel TV on Sunday.

Palestinian security forces have erected checkpoints around the Jenin area in an attempt to prevent militant attacks during the Sanur and Homesh evictions.

The four small settlements in the West Bank being evicted are part of Ariel Sharon's disengagement plan. In all approximately 660 settlers will be removed from the northern West Bank.

Approximately 450,000 Jewish settlers live in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.

Source

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I'm impressed that it was done completely without any clashes between soldiers and protesters.

I apologize for this statement, it was very poor wording. I already knew about the attacks on vehicles and the injuries among soldiers. I was just expressing pleasure that there were no deaths, and no gunfights.

Though those two Jewish terrorist attacks do have to be counted. There have been a few Palestinian deaths, during this pull-out.

[inked]

Peace due to Jewish pullouts?

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...lestinianhamas


Yes. If you bought the line that Palestinians would "be nice", think again!

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by inked

If you bought the line that Palestinians would "be nice", think again!

I object to your generalization. This article is not about all Palestinians but about Hamas. And Hamas has always been Israel's enemy.

This article is rather discouraging though, I must say. I didn't know that Hamas was making such incendiary statements about Israel in recent days- I thought that they were being calmer to work with Mahmoud Abbas and the political system. So this is sad .

[inked]

Palestinians aren't an ethnic group, are they? In fact, they didn't exist until conjured by the former regime in Jordan as a warfare tactic against Israel. And their "fellow" arabian descended rulers didn't think them worthy of giving land to in their day! All in all, you gotta credit more than Hamas with the intent to destroy Israel over the non-historical "Palestinian state."

Sauce for goose, sauce for gander. Unless you have an historically ignorant or uneducated audience. Which most of Western civilization qualifies for, I fear!

[Spock]

Indeed!

[Lief Erikson]

I'll get to your post, inked.

I'm just posting really quick to remark that I find Hamas claims that they "forced" Israel to withdraw from Gaza Strip very far fetched. I really think Israel left because they thought it was better for their security, and Gaza couldn't be maintained plausibly in the long run. The terrorist acts of Hamas and other groups in the area probably was a factor in their decision, but certainly Hamas in no way "forced" Israel to leave. I'm sure that many Palestinians really want to believe Hamas did, though, because they feel the need of a hero, of a force that can "stand up to the oppressor."

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by inked

Unless you have an historically ignorant or uneducated audience. Which most of Western civilization qualifies for, I fear!

the problem is not education (sometimes it the educated who are the problem )... it's cultural stereotyping

[Spock]

a voice of the intelligensia has spoken