LoTR Discussion project; Book IV Chapters 3 and 4

[olsonm]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Was it Gollum's promise to the Ring that prevented him from answering this question directly, or something else? It is interesting to note that even when Frodo manages to draw him out about the way being guarded, there is always something that apparently stops Gollum from being truthful - later on in this passage, he is presumably in a sulk because of being accused of being a liar, and manages to further dodge any questions of the pass being guarded.

I would conjecture that Gollum's promise to Shelob was also playing a part in preventing him from opening up to Frodo. "...and the darkness of her evil will walked through all the ways of his weariness beside him, cutting him off from light and from regret. And he had promised to bring her food....And Gollum brought it to her." Creepy. Very entertaining summary BoP.

[Earniel]

*Catching up through older chapters* Nice and extensive intro, BoP, even if I'm a little late in mentioning it.

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

An interesting on-going theme in Lord of the Rings is that Sauron very seldom seems to build, or create new buildings, but rather, seems to corrupt and defile buildings of his enemies. Do you think this is related to what Tolkien said about the Enemy not being able to create life, only pervert?

I think opportunity is a bigger factor in it than his ability or create life or not. When Morgoth built Angband and the Thangorodrim there weren't any other fortresses yet that he could have invaded and taken over. But when Sauron found his country was nicely surrounded by very convenient structures and fortresses that either stood empty, or could be taken over relatively easily, it would have made sense that he filled them with his own servants.

Not only did he not have to face the logistic problem of actually having to build things but he could sneak into the abandoned structures quite easily and turn them on his enemies. Building whole new structures on the mountains encircling Mordor would have drawn more attention, or more easily, than simply and silently taking over existing structures, IMO. And it doesn't take quite so long either. I take it that it would have been very agonizing for the people of Gondor to see Sauron not only take over their built fortresses and towers but also turn them into weapons against them. I suppose that alone was enough reason for Sauron to do so.

Originally Posted by BoP

Do you think this stone survived the fall of Barad-dur?

I think it is possible. The PalantÃ*ri were rather sturdy made, if one remembers the one in Orthanc splintering the step where it landed and that it was itself undamaged. So I think it is possible the stone survived the actual collapse of the tower, but it is difficult to say how it would react to fire.

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

How do you think the story would have diverge if perhaps Aragorn or Gandalf had been there to warn Frodo of Gollum's deception? Or if either Frodo or Sam had been better students of Mordor's Geography?

This is of course pure speculation but I reckon, that if Gandalf and Aragorn were with Frodo and Sam at that moment, they wouldn't have tried to take another road. Cirith Ungol was still the best option they had to get into Mordor unnoticed. I do not know whether Gandalf and Aragorn were aware of Shelob lurking in the tunnel but I think they would have chosen Cirith Ungol regardless. What would have been different, is possibly the fight with Shelob and the way the orcs captured the unconcious Frodo. I don't think that would have happened if the Hobbits had been accompanied.

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Why do you suppose Gollum finds the smells of Ithilien to be so distressing?

I suppose he has been hiding too long under his Mountain to be able to appreciate the odours of the world above ground.

[i]What modern locale do you think Ithilien is comparable to? (water lilies on the lake, "English" trees, fern, hot southern winds.)

I never thought Ithilien was meant to resemble a certain country side of England. I always had the idea that it had the feel of a garden, a wonderful old fashioned garden, the kind you'd love to have had when you were a kid to play around in. Or the garden your neighbours had but where you always wanted to sneak in because it was so beautiful. The sort of large garden with a wall around and a pond with lillies and where you could spy on the frogs, with trees to climb in and such. A garden that has been neglected for a while, but that reminds you of those wonderful childhood memories. And we all know that often childhood memories represent something better and more glorious than it actually was. The stone bassins, the mentions of Ithilien being the garden of Gondor, strengthen my idea of that. I don't know whether I can get the image across sufficiently but I reckon I'm probably the only one who thinks like that.

Originally Posted by BoP

The notion of Platonic Love has been brought up before - do you think that a relationship such as that of Sam's and Frodo's is replicated in 'Modern Life', or is it purely a work of fiction from a bygone era?

This might probably be only me too, but I thought at first such a relationship was indeed something you'd only come across in older works of fiction. But when I saw the new Doctor Who series I was kind of struck by simularities in the Doctor's and Rose's relationship and that of Sam and Frodo.