Why Galadriel's gift to Boromir - a belt?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by durinsbane2244

the knowing of boromirs fate is a good one, but also, boromir was a very materialistic person. he thought the ring could be used and didnt thin about it overcoming them. and materialistic people love gold. its shiny. so dont touch mine. its mine. my own. my preciousssssssssss.

Now that is unfair! Boromir "was a man after the sort of King Eärnur of old, taking no wife and delighting chiefly in arms; fearless and strong". . Surely he would have preferred an elven blade to some flashy belt! He may have been materialistic, that it doesn't mean he was greedy of gold as such. He wanted the One ring not as a shiny trinket, but because of the power it contained: the power to win the war and save his country.

Actually Boromir is tragic. He was the most formidable man in ME after Aragorn (and Denethor maybe). But Fate has put him in such a place where he could do nothing to resist the lure of the One. Men were always the least resistant to ring influence, and the most powerful and strong willed were even more tempted than average ones. Nobody has even bothered to explain Boromir in detail why he could not use the One. Aragorn had been taught from childhood the story of Isildur and had time to reflect on it, I am sure he was reflecting on it over and over again. It was foolish for Erlond and Gandalf to let Boromir join the fellowship, it was criminal for Galadriel to let him continue, after she learned of his lust for the Ring.

But it is quite typical for Elves to let men down. How do you think, back in the middle of the Second age, when Sauron distributed the nine rings, has any keeper of the Three bothered to warn Men about the danger of the Elven rings? I bet not!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I agree Gordis. I also think that if Faramir had been around the Ring for the same amount of time as Boromir and been at the Council, he also would have lusted for it.

[Forkbeard]

Well, do remember that the gifts were given SPECIFICALLY as a remembrance of Galadriel and Lothlorien. And they are parting gifts. Aragorn, long known to Galadriel and soon to be part of the family, received 2 gifts: the ring for hope, and a sheath for Anduril. Boromir, a golden belt, M&P silver belts. Expensive gifts, and we aren't told what kind of belts--mere trouser holders? belts that hold swords etc?. Legolas a bow of Lothlorien--not a bad gift either, not just a weapon which is expensive enough, but also a badge of acceptance, Sam his box of earth and mallorn seed, and Frodo--Frodo's gift seems to be the only one specifically useful for the Quest. The others have a kind of passive use, and all are symbolic in some way, but Frodo's was specifically prepared and given for the Quest.

So what would the belts signify? Well, belts gird one's loins (courage), hold weapons as well as pants, and are expensive having been made out of gold and silver--worthy gifts for worthy men.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Originally Posted by The Wizard from Milan

Indeed Boromir's gift is the most difficult to understand. I wonder whether the fact that it was "gold with no purpose" is indeed the symbolical meaning of it

It doesnt seem that anyone has touched on this theory since you mentioned it Wizard from Milan, but I like it a lot. Boromir's father Denathor and even himself Bromir were like the belt, noble, majestic, high class, but in the time of the return of the king... close to useless.(If you get my meaning) Furthermore the golden belts seeminly uselessness could be symbolic again in Boromir's understanding of the ring... the golden belt, golden one ring. The ring should not be used, although it is a golden treasure beyond treasures it should not be used and therefore would be rendered useless. A lesson Boromir failed to learn. The belt along with everthing else at the least had a symbolic value and I feel that that at least can be said on the purpose on each gift.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

A lesson Boromir failed to learn.

Some people, even those who read the book, percieve Boromir as a person driven by the greed to the point of disgust. His inner gentle sides , his honesty and straightforwardnes, his bravery defending his country, for which he was high esteemed amongst his people, his noble notions to use the ring not for his sake, but to SAVE THE PEOPLE are very easily discarded, labeling him "corupted".
Nothing surprising if he, as experienced in the war with Sauron commander, did not believe in this rag-tag's ability to breach Saurons bastion! He knew the terrain and Sauron's capabilities much better than anybody else. Nobody was brave enough to oppose the decision of the Elves. Only Boromir had the guts to stand up and voice his opinion, for which he gained in my eyes much higher respect then Aragorn.

The fact that he withstood the Ring's allure longer than so hight -estimed and so unfailable Galadriel somehow is passing unnoticed.What would she do if would has been in close proximity to the Ring for such long time, when she almost grabbed it at the first sight!

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Some people, even those who read the book, percieve Boromir as a person driven by the greed to the point of disgust. His inner gentle sides , his honesty and straightforwardnes, his bravery defending his country, for which he was high esteemed amongst his people, his noble notions to use the ring not for his sake, but to SAVE THE PEOPLE are very easily discarded, labeling him "corupted".
Nothing surprising if he, as experienced in the war with Sauron commander, did not believe in this rag-tag's ability to breach Saurons bastion! He knew the terrain and Sauron's capabilities much better than anybody else. Nobody was brave enough to oppose the decision of the Elves. Only Boromir had the guts to stand up and voice his opinion, for which he gained in my eyes much higher respect then Aragorn.

The fact that he withstood the Ring's allure longer than so hight -estimed and so unfailable Galadriel somehow is passing unnoticed.What would she do if would has been in close proximity to the Ring for such long time, when she almost grabbed it at the first sight!

Olmer makes a good point here. Boromir's "fall" was not one of greed, it was one of pride. He thought that he or his father would prove able to master the Ring and by mastering it throw down Sauron and so save Gondor and the rest of the Free Peoples of Middle Earth. Misguided intentions, but good ones nonetheless. The nature of the Ring was to take good intentions and twist them to evil ends, as Gandalf himself indicates when he describes what would happen should he (or Saruman) take the Ring.

So I have to disagree that the gold belt signifies anything to do with greed or moral failure or "uselessness."

Naturally I also disagree with Olmer's reading of Boromir vs. Aragorn. Boromir was young, and Boromir had a point: how long does one need to be a "steward" when there is no king who will return? The quest was a hopeless one, but so equally, if not more so, would be turning aside to take the Ring to Gondor and expect a man, Numenorean or not, to master the Ring in time to be a threat to Sauron.

Aragorn eschewed the Ring and the path to power, and if any man could have mastered the Ring it would be he (after all he likewise wrested the palantir from Sauron's control) and he certainly had greater claim on the Ring than Boromir by lineage and for all the same reasons, had the greater spirit, knowledge, and insight. So, yes, honor Boromir for his courage, but don't take from Aragorn for his part.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I agree with you Olmer, apart from the Boromir vs Aragorn part and the Galadriel part.
FB explained my POV in his post so I'll just skip straight to Galadriel.
I think it is unfair that you compare her 'lust' for the Ring with Boromir's. Boromir wanted the Ring to help his country and his land, but he didn't know the Rings potential and full power whereas Galadriel did. Naturally a object of high power attracts for attention and creates more lust than one of little power.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Yet you digress, the point of the matter is not Boromirs decent or Galadriels, but what the purpose of the golden belt given to Boromir was? I stand by my theory because pride can be born from and feeds off of greed. Greed for more renown, more respect from his people, greed for the defence of his land... never does he mention the protection of theelven kingdoms, or of Rohan, or of anywhere but Gondor... his pride is born of greed and they both feed and develop from each other.

[Forkbeard]

[QUOTE=Halbarad of the Dunedain]Yet you digress, the point of the matter is not Boromirs decent or Galadriels, but what the purpose of the golden belt given to Boromir was?[/QUOTE}

What if it is nothing beyond what Galadriel said it was? A remembrance of Lothlorien?

I stand by my theory because pride can be born from and feeds off of greed. Greed for more renown, more respect from his people, greed for the defence of his land... never does he mention the protection of theelven kingdoms, or of Rohan, or of anywhere but Gondor... his pride is born of greed and they both feed and develop from each other.

As Theoden and Eomer both remark, if Mundburg falls, there is no hope for Rohan, so Boromir talking about the defense of Rohan in contrast to the defense of Gondor is silly. As for protection of the Lothlorien and Rivendell and Thranduil, Gondor has for many lives of men been sundered from those kingdoms, and besides 2 of them have survived quite well without Gondor's help. His "greed" in the terms you mention are what every hero of Germanic legend sought, the legends on which Tolkien drew so much.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Yet you did not say that my statments were wrong, just not neccessary, persay. Yet if Bormoir took the ring and defeated Sauron and saved his lands... would Rohan be safe? I think not, Boromirs pride and greed would lead him to conquest, to domminate over Rohan, and Arthedian, and anything else he could. As he says, "It could have been mine, it should have been mine!" not it should have been gondors, for gondor... its greed... the ring makes everyones greed and lust come out more but that was Boromirs underlying flaw... greed for more power, more influence, more followers, more status!

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

the ring makes everyones greed and lust come out more but that was Boromirs underlying flaw... greed for more power, more influence, more followers, more status!

I am not sure about that. I think the quote from the book (Gandalf in particular) is the ring will turn everything to evil. (I am paraphrasing a bit)

This I think would mean different things to different people. Sam would have an interest in Gardens across ME, Gollum would have fish morning, noon, night. Boromir would have Gondor become an invincible country secure against all the rest. (etc.)

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

Yet you digress, the point of the matter is not Boromirs decent or Galadriels, but what the purpose of the golden belt given to Boromir was? I stand by my theory because pride can be born from and feeds off of greed. Greed for more renown, more respect from his people, greed for the defence of his land... never does he mention the protection of theelven kingdoms, or of Rohan, or of anywhere but Gondor... his pride is born of greed and they both feed and develop from each other.

I disagree that you can call the desire to save one's land "greed". And he would have defended Rohan for sure, were it attacked, as there was a treaty.
And why should he care for defence of Elven kingdoms. Had Elves ever helped Gondor?

And, suppose you are right about the meaning of the belt. So Pippin &Merry got their belts to emphasize THEIR greed?

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

Yet you did not say that my statments were wrong, just not neccessary, persay. Yet if Bormoir took the ring and defeated Sauron and saved his lands... would Rohan be safe? I think not, Boromirs pride and greed would lead him to conquest, to domminate over Rohan, and Arthedian, and anything else he could. As he says, "It could have been mine, it should have been mine!" not it should have been gondors, for gondor... its greed... the ring makes everyones greed and lust come out more but that was Boromirs underlying flaw... greed for more power, more influence, more followers, more status!

Would anyone be safe if anyone mastered the Ring? No. So this seems a "wrong" argument to me, period. Even Sam has visions of marching ahead of armies and defeating everything. But his gift is a box of dirt with a seed. Sorry for the quick response.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

I disagree that you can call the desire to save one's land "greed". And he would have defended Rohan for sure, were it attacked, as there was a treaty.
And why should he care for defence of Elven kingdoms. Had Elves ever helped Gondor?

And, suppose you are right about the meaning of the belt. So Pippin &Merry got their belts to emphasize THEIR greed?

Excellent points!

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Olmer

[..] or comletely unpractical (like the box of earth, which Sam had to heave to Mt.Doom without a hope of coming back).

I disagree. Frankly, I can't think of a better gift to give to a gardner than good earth and a viable and seed.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I disagree. Frankly, I can't think of a better gift to give to a gardner than good earth and a viable and seed.

To a gardener - yes. But he was not going to the Hobbiton. He was going to the Mount Doom to die , because he ”can’t turn back” without completeng the quest. Whatever Frodo's actions would be, his actions would be to "help" him to get rid of the Ring, or to die in attempt.
Galadriel definately knew of such bleak perspective for Sam, but nevertheless she gives him totally useless for the quest box , like he had not enough stuff to carry.
Even if it was kind of encouragement to give him hopes for coming back, I still think that it was a cruel mockery to burden somebody with useless and uncomfortable to carry stuff. After all she could give the earth and etc. after his return from Mordor.

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

I some how do not remember that wording in LOTR.
I do not know if Gimli knew ". . . that Noldor princess has estimed her hair so much, that considered 3 hair(!!) as a precious prize!"
I am ignorant of Galadriel's refusal to give hair to Feanor.

Do you have any statements from LOTR (or if needed from other Tolkien sources) that back up your statement?

The wording is a little bit different, but the meaning is the same:"Let none say again that Dwarves are grasping and ungracious! Yet, surely, Gimli son of Gloin, you desire something that I could give. Name it, I bid you!"
Of course he DID NOT KNOW know about Galadriel's hair! Otherwise he would ask for something less valuable, like her nails clippings for instance.

About Galadriel's refusal you can read in the "UT".

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by Olmer

The wording is a little bit different, but the meaning is the same:"Let none say again that Dwarves are grasping and ungracious! Yet, surely, Gimli son of Gloin, you desire something that I could give. Name it, I bid you!"
Of course he DID NOT KNOW know about Galadriel's hair! Otherwise he would ask for something less valuable, like her nails clippings for instance.

About Galadriel's refusal you can read in the "UT".

Thanks for the source. Some day I will need to read the other Tolkien books on Middle Earth. (Only read Hobbit, LOTR & and abour ½ of Similarion.)

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Even if it was kind of encouragement to give him hopes for coming back, I still think that it was a cruel mockery to burden somebody with useless and uncomfortable to carry stuff. After all she could give the earth and etc. after his return from Mordor.

Well though I don't like Galadriel myself, it seems to me she has given the box to Sam as an encouragement. Sam did see the Shire defiled in her mirror and she knew it. Perhaps she could even foretell that Sam would survive.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by gordis

Well though I don't like Galadriel myself, it seems to me she has given the box to Sam as an encouragement. Sam did see the Shire defiled in her mirror and she knew it. Perhaps she could even foretell that Sam would survive.

If she could foretell his survival, then she, certainly, could foretell something about her own future, particularly her another meeting with Sam before he would head towards Shire. At that time her gift would be timely, well appreciated and no burden.

[Gordis]

Well, you despise Galadriel more than I do! Than IF you are right, she would hardly think of Sam more than "of a worm in the mud". Would she really bother to mock him?