The truth about Truth

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Truth is a rabbit in a bramble patch. All you can do is circle around and say it’s somewhere in there.

Bwaha!! Awesome. Can I put you in my sig?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Spock

Two of my favorite quotes on this subject are: 1) "the truth is out there" by Mulder and 2) "you can't handle the truth" by Jack Nicolson. IMO they are both correct.

Nicholson was fabulous in that movie!

[Spock]

Rian, laundry is too over rated.

[MrBishop]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

What the father said was a lie, but he was not lying as to him this was the truth and had been told to him posed as the truth. However I agree with Tessar that there is only one truth. People may believe may believe that the truth is different things but that doesn't make it true. The father believed what he was saying was the truth but that didn't make it the truth.

It also didn't make it a lie. It was a truthful statement, but not a factual one. Hence the whole point about this thread.... the potentially HUGE difference between truth and fact.

Hell, consider this... If I say that there are aliens living on Saturn, having no facts or believing the opposite to be true...I'd be lying (granted, a white lie)... If in 50 years, aliens are discovered living on Saturn... my lie was actually the truth, though I was still lying when I said it.

[Nurvingiel]

Yes, he was absolutely brilliant! I love that movie. (We're talking about A Few Good Men.)

However, I think Nicholson's character, whose name escapes me, was wrong. Maybe they couldn't have handled the truth about what (from his perspective anyway) the military situation was in Guantanamo Bay, but is it really up to him to decide what the people in the court/the general public should know?

Maybe it was in that case because he was a general, but then again, he didn't exactly prove himself to be of sound judgement by societies standards. And isn't that who he's working for?

[Spock]

Often people can't handle the truth. It is not logical, never the less, it is often true.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Bwaha!! Awesome. Can I put you in my sig?

Sure. Although true credit goes to Pete Seeger's father I believe.

[inked]

Yeah, but IR doesn't really believe it! See the evolution debates ad nauseum!

[Nurvingiel]

Haha My darn sig is full anyway. (I even used tiny URL. )

[Lief Erikson]

The key word here is belief, not truth. Too many times, people confuse belief with truth. The died-in-the-wool atheist speaks a belief. The devout Catholic Priest speaks a belief. It is not that the truth is different from one person to another. There is one truth. We can all form opinions about what we believe that truth to be. These opinions are not TRUTHS! (not that I'm mad at anyone). Truth does not change based upon our beliefs or opinions. If one of us creates a heaven in his mind, which he believes he will go to, where the entire world is one big cheese cake with lemonade glasses every few feet, this does NOT mean that he will go there. If my sister earnestly believes that the Lord has prophesied to her that I will be president within the year, that does NOT mean that it will be true. Obviously .

Einstien, when considering the Theory of Relativity, and many other esteemed scientists considered the possibility that reality changes based upon our beliefs, that our beliefs form reality, that truth wavers and depends upon human opinion. They found that the idea was useless, and that it was worthless. The idea goes nowhere.

"I have my truth, you have your truth. Both are equally true." They are not. I don't have my truth- I have my belief. I have my belief about the way reality is, and I could be wrong.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Spock

Rian, laundry is too over rated.

(Do you have a strong deodorant? )

(and do you do your own, btw?)

[Baby-K]

Originally Posted by Tessar

You guys are still confusing objective truths.

There is only ONE truth.

Yeah OK

And there is only one flavour of ice cream.

And one colour in a rainbow.

And one pair of shoes in the shop.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

actually there is only one colour in a rainbow, or anywhere for that matter, white light, blacks and greys are shades of white, and all other colours are just various aspects of the spectrum made visible

[Baby-K]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

actually there is only one colour in a rainbow, or anywhere for that matter, white light, blacks and greys are shades of white, and all other colours are just various aspects of the spectrum made visible

SHut up or I'll sit on you

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

actually there is only one colour in a rainbow, or anywhere for that matter, white light, blacks and greys are shades of white, and all other colours are just various aspects of the spectrum made visible

Actually that's not true anyway. White light can be refracted into many colours. That doesn't mean all the colours are one. IOW the colour spectrum, all of which are found in equal balance in white light, is made up of many colours.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

"I have my truth, you have your truth. Both are equally true." They are not. I don't have my truth- I have my belief. I have my belief about the way reality is, and I could be wrong.

Good point Lief. I like the way you put that. If I say you are correct... does that mean it is true?

With beliefs, there is one truth, but we have no way of knowing what that truth is. Therefore, all beliefs (all other factors being equal) are equally valid. They are not all true, but if we don't know the truth, that doesn't matter.

Everyone's beliefs are equally valid, but one feels their own beliefs are more correct than other people's - otherwise, they would believe something else. Even the person who says "I have my truth, you have your truth. Both are equally true" thinks that, if they have any defineable beliefs.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Good point Lief. I like the way you put that. If I say you are correct... does that mean it is true?

No, you believe it to be true .

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

With beliefs, there is one truth, but we have no way of knowing what that truth is. Therefore, all beliefs (all other factors being equal) are equally valid. They are not all true, but if we don't know the truth, that doesn't matter.

The thing is, though, that all factors usually are not equal. Indians of the past used to think that the Northern Lights were formed from the laughter of unborn children. They had only the use of their own senses to support their hypothesis. We have the use of our own senses, + modern technology. All factors are not equal. Therefore one belief may be (and, in my opinion, usually is) more valid then another.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Baby-K

Yeah OK

And there is only one flavour of ice cream.

And one colour in a rainbow.

And one pair of shoes in the shop.

Where are you going with this? If there is more then one truth, then reality is more then one way, in which case scientific data can determine nothing with any reliability. Science relies upon there being one stable way the universe is. I might be in my house while I am typing this post. If I am there, I am not also in the bank. There is one truth.

If you are eating Ice Cream, and you are eating Rocky Road and Vanilla, this is still one truth, one reality. Reality does not change based upon your belief. The fact that you are eating Rocky Road does not negate the fact that you are also eating Vanilla. That doesn't mean that there is less then one truth. The one truth is that you are eating BOTH Rocky Road and Vanilla! That you are eating both does not mean that you are dealing with two different truths- it's the same truth, the same simple reality.

There is one truth that there is one pair of shoes in the shoe store. It is also one truth that there are many pairs of shoes in the shoe store. These truths aren't different from one another. They are all true, but they are non-contradictory because they are one truth. In order for there to be one truth, there doesn't have to be one thing.

The same goes for flavors of ice cream. The truth that there are numerous flavors to ice cream is one truth.

I won't get into the rainbow business .

For someone to find an example of there being more then one truth, one would have to show that truth is contradictory. Usually in modern society though, whenever two things are found in science that appear to be contradictory, (such as Quantum Mechanics and the Theory of Relativity being out of wack) usually it is instantly assumed that the fault is with our theories and with our current understanding. The assumption always is that truth is a constant, that truth does not change. Truth is one.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

The thing is, though, that all factors usually are not equal. Indians of the past used to think that the Northern Lights were formed from the laughter of unborn children. They had only the use of their own senses to support their hypothesis. We have the use of our own senses, + modern technology. All factors are not equal. Therefore one belief may be (and, in my opinion, usually is) more valid then another.

That's why I said all other factors being equal, which I probably should have elaborated on (ie. level of technology) but I beleive that I will be late for class if I don't leave now.

[Lief Erikson]

Yeah, I noted that you made the provision. So many people think that all beliefs are equal, regardless of the factors that may be involved, that I just felt the necessity of underlining that provision.