The Shibboleth of Fëanor

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I'll have to think a bit more, but I think I might remain undecided! What do you think, Arty?

I think the Valar made a wrong decision. They erred because they could not face MÃ*riel's willed 'suicide' by her lack of endurance, and the unhappiness of Finwë thereof in Aman. It was not in accordance with the blissful world they wanted. But I think they should have realised that even in Aman there were elements of Arda Marred, and that they could not completely escape its effects.

I also think it was inconsiderate against MÃ*riel not to allow her to return to her body, even if it was with her consent. That was just like a little trick so that Finwë could be able to set the law aside and remarry.

There is imo an open question whether Finwë really loved Indis like he loved MÃ*riel, or if he was just obsessed by his desire of having more children and she was conveniently there with love for him.

ElemmÃ*rë, I think that we cannot jugde whether an action was morally right or wrong by considering the actual consequences of the action in retrospect. We may only take into consideration the facts that were known at the time of the action.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by ElemmÃ*rë

Fëanor considered the old "þ" to be more correct than the "s". Technically speaking, yes, the "þ" was the more accurate way of speaking. However, in reality is it actually more correct? Is something right because it has history, or because it is presently in use?

I agree with RÃ*an, the Noldorin loremasters did not hold to þ because it was more 'correct', but because the use of it made the language more beautiful and consistent. It was all about aestethics to begin with, before Fëanor turned it into a familty feud.

[Rían]

It's such a tough call, because MÃ*riel's actions affected other people ... (reminds me of a recent talk I had with our oldest son ... ) If someone's choices harm someone else, then is it right to give that someone else some options to relieve the harm? Tough ... and I like how JRRT doesn't answer it!

I like how the Valar are split on this - very imaginative and "realistic" of JRRT!

What book was that in - something like "The debate of Finwë and MÃ*riel" ...

*goes to look it up*

[Rían]

Ah, Morgoth's Ring ...

OK, Arty, the Valar said that it had to be mutually agreed upon ...

But since it is not to be thought that the living shall, by his or her will alone, confine the spirit of the other to Mandos, this disunion shall come to pass only the the consent of both. And after the giving of the consent ten years of the Valar shall pass ere Mandos confirms it. Within that time either party may revoke this consent; but when Mandos has confirmed it, and the living spouse has wedded another, it shall be irrevocable until the end of Arda.

Seems pretty reasonable to me - what do you think?

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

OK, Arty, the Valar said that it had to be mutually agreed upon ...

I know, that's why I said:

Originally Posted by Me

think it was inconsiderate against MÃ*riel not to allow her to return to her body, even if it was with her consent.

It was a double error of the Valar, not only were they breaking the laws and let Finwë remarry, but they also set a doom upon MÃ*riel. It was an exception, and I think it was wrong because the separation of the spirit and the body was not the natural state for an Elf. The Valar for MÃ*riel's sake should have left an option for her to return to her body. IIRC when she later actually did regret her choice and wanted to return, the Valar made another exception in an effort to redress the first exception: They allowed her to return to her body even if Finwë was married to Indis, because Finwë was now dead.

[Rían]

Life isn't easy, is it?!

It's a tough call between restricting an individual's freedom (MÃ*riel) and trying to reduce damage caused by an individual's decision (MÃ*riel's decision to not return to her body hurt her son and her husband). To me, it was a correct decision, because they obtained MÃ*riel's consent, in a STRONGLY definite manner, and there was that 10-year waiting period (10 VALAR years!). I'm a strong believer in consequences of choices.

Now IMO, the best solution would have been for Finwë to NOT remarry. But one must be realistic. It's certainly the best solution for me to never get frustrated with the kids - but I do. I think it would have been the best solution for Finwë to "suck it up" and enjoy his amazing son, but he didn't - and since the natural state of elves is to be married, one can't blame him very much.

What's the "scorecard" on the issue, if you have time? (I'll get to it in the next day or two if you don't). IOW, which Vala on which side? IIRC, the ones I liked best were on the side of Finwë not remarrying, but that it was allowable and understandable.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

It's a tough call between restricting an individual's freedom (MÃ*riel) and trying to reduce damage caused by an individual's decision (MÃ*riel's decision to not return to her body hurt her son and her husband). To me, it was a correct decision, because they obtained MÃ*riel's consent, in a STRONGLY definite manner, and there was that 10-year waiting period (10 VALAR years!). I'm a strong believer in consequences of choices.

Not sure if I understand you right here, but if you're saying that the ban upon MÃ*riel to not return to her body was a consequence of her choice, then I disagree with you. I see it as a consequence of Finwë's choice to marry Indis. Let me rephrase a sentence from my previous post to make my position more clear:
"...not only were they breaking the laws and let Finwë remarry, but in doing so they also set a doom upon MÃ*riel."

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I think it would have been the best solution for Finwë to "suck it up" and enjoy his amazing son, but he didn't - and since the natural state of elves is to be married, one can't blame him very much.

True, and I don't really blame Finwë - how could I, I don't even blame Fëanor - his (Finwë) situation was difficult and I can very well understand his feelings and why he acted like he did, but that doesn't keep me from thinking that he was selfish and did wrong.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

What's the "scorecard" on the issue, if you have time? (I'll get to it in the next day or two if you don't). IOW, which Vala on which side? IIRC, the ones I liked best were on the side of Finwë not remarrying, but that it was allowable and understandable.

Don't remember, IIRC the majority were pro Finwë remarrying. But it's a long time since I read that part of Morgoth's Ring, so I may be completely wrong.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Artanis

Not sure if I understand you right here, but if you're saying that the ban upon MÃ*riel to not return to her body was a consequence of her choice, then I disagree with you. I see it as a consequence of Finwë's choice to marry Indis.

But let me quote from JRRT -

It is said that MÃ*riel answered Mandos saying: 'I came hither to escape from the body, and I do not desire ever to return to it'...

I agree that it's a consequence of Finwë's choice to marry Indis, but I think it's MORE a consequence of MÃ*riel's words, because if she said something as definite as that, she needs to stick to it, since it affects others, and she had 10 years to change her mind.

[Rían]

hroom hroom ... *flips thru some pages*

This is interesting - Finwë's speech to Manwë:

Lord, behold! I am bereaved; and alone among the Eldar I am without a wife, and must hope for no sons save one, and no daughter. Whereas Ingwë and Olwë beget many children in the bliss of Aman. Must I remain ever so? For I deem that MÃ*riel will not return again ever from the house of Vairë.

Coupla points of interest -

1. Really, now, Finwë - father of the greatest guy in Aman, and you're whining?! Buck up! (but I wonder how early Fëanáro's greatness was apparent? It looks like he was highly skilled by the time of MÃ*riel's death.)

2. I like how he wants daughters, too

3. Comparing himself to Ingwë and Olwë - I dunno, just seems a little childish. But OTOH, he must have felt terribly singled out and devastated by this tragic and totally unique situation.


also,

Originally Posted by Arty the fair

...not only were they breaking the laws and let Finwë remarry...

but IMHO they were NOT "breaking the laws" - the book explicitly says it was done "by the right of lawgiving that Ilúvatar committed to Manwë...".


EDIT - whoops, just realized I got OT from the Shibboleth - but this is very related, as it is pretty much the source of Fëanáro's general angstiness.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Now IMO, the best solution would have been for Finwë to NOT remarry...

But then there would have been... no Finrod... NO ARTANIS!!

[Rían]

No Arty?!?!

*reconsiders*

*buys a wedding present for Finwë and Indis*

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Val

But then there would have been... no Finrod... NO ARTANIS!!

Clearly a very good point!

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

but IMHO they were NOT "breaking the laws" - the book explicitly says it was done "by the right of lawgiving that Ilúvatar committed to Manwë...".

OK, I agree that it is wrong to say 'breaking the law', but I think they should not have remade the law. They erred in this situation imo, for even if they are angelic beings and have the right to give laws, they are as we know not without faults.

[Rían]

I think they tried hard and did their best with a difficult situation, tho.

[Rían]

I don't see it as the law being 'remade'; I see it as the law being adapted/extended to cover a new situation.

For example, look at the law about stopping at red lights for cars. This was a good law, sufficient for all situations, until a person got hurt and needed to get to a hospital quickly, and the law was extended/adapted to cover a new situation - ambulences may go thru red lights. Laws should be for the best possible good for everyone.

[Artanis]

Sometimes the best possible good comes from accepting that there are sorrow and grief in the world. My point is that, whether you call it adapted, extended, remade, or broke the law, I think the Valar should have realised that even in Aman everything was not supposed to be perfect.

Originally Posted by RÃ*

Really, now, Finwë - father of the greatest guy in Aman, and you're whining?!

Finwë was probably not the only 'single' Elf in Aman either, there were others that happened to be in love with someone who was already married or could not give love in return, and therefore had no children at all. Finwë wasn't that special. His firstborn son otoh ....

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Artanis

Sometimes the best possible good comes from accepting that there are sorrow and grief in the world.

I agree.

[Rían]

Whew, a whole page of Finwë and MÃ*riel ... well, it's certainly a big part of the backstory of the Shibboleth! (as well as being discussed in the Shibboleth itself)

Anyway, back to the Shibboleth proper...

An interesting thing about the whole Þ discussion, and the discussion about how the Noldor "Sindarized" their names to be acoustically pleasing and to "jive" with the culture they had moved to, is it explained how Thingol got his name. I always wondered how "Thingol" came about from "Sindikollo", but if you say "Sindikollo" with the Þ sound, you can see how it happened!

[Rían]

And MÃ*riel is called MÃ*riel Serindë - but in the Shibboleth, she's called MÃ*riel Þerindë.

Interesting! (at least to a language-lover like me!)

So does anyone understand Fëanor's little line to his kids when they asked him about the difference in speech?

So Fëanor would call himself 'Son of the Þerindë', and when his sons in their childhood asked why their kin in the house of Finwë used s for Þ he answered: 'Take no heed! We speak as is right, and as King Finwë himself did before he was led astray. We are his heirs by right and the elder house. Let them sá-sÃ*, if they can speak no better.'

So what does sá-sÃ* mean?

(pretty insulting thing to say about Finwë, too! )

[Rían]

(Arty, hurry back from vacation!)

[me9996]

Shouldn't this to in the "Slim" forum?