Wraiths

[Embladyne]

hypothetical was the word you were looking for...
Hmm...wraiths as produced by the stab of a nazgul blade?
maybe you should broaden the category of things to dicuss to include other undeadish being such as the barrow wights, and the dead marshes...?

[Attalus]

Excellent point.

[me9996]

Originally Posted by Embladyne

hypothetical was the word you were looking for...
Hmm...wraiths as produced by the stab of a nazgul blade?
maybe you should broaden the category of things to dicuss to include other undeadish being such as the barrow wights, and the dead marshes...?

Okey, I'll put in the barrow wights.
Are there wraiths in the dead marshes?

[Embladyne]

Originally Posted by me9996

Are there wraiths in the dead marshes?

As far as I know, no.
It's just that, to me, wraiths, barrow wights, and the dead marshes all seem to share the commonality of being something that is not quite dead in a very eerie way.

[Tessar]

Me9996, have you read the books, or just seen the movies?

This thread could go a couple of ways, depending on if you're trying to base your ideas on the pure, unchanged books or on how Peter Jackson represented the books.

[me9996]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Me9996, have you read the books, or just seen the movies?

This thread could go a couple of ways, depending on if you're trying to base your ideas on the pure, unchanged books or on how Peter Jackson represented the books.

I've read the books and think they're better!
(Have you seen my Book/movie tread in the movie forum?)

P.S.
100th post!

[ItalianLegolas]

I've always wanted to ask this question, so here goes... I know that Barrow-wights are not the same as Nazgul, but as Tolkien first thought of LoTR, appeared very much the same, so, are Barrow-wights in anyway the same as Nazgul, or perhaps distant cousins of the spectral world??

[Elemmírë]

Wow... this has got to be one of the weirdest threads I've read. And that's really saying something.

As long as we're talking about wraiths, what exactly is the wraith-world?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by ItalianLegolas

I've always wanted to ask this question, so here goes... I know that Barrow-wights are not the same as Nazgul, but as Tolkien first thought of LoTR, appeared very much the same, so, are Barrow-wights in anyway the same as Nazgul, or perhaps distant cousins of the spectral world??

The Barrow-wights were evil spirits from Angmar that infested the Great Barrows after Third Age 1636. Angmar was populated with Orcs, Hill-men, and other such creatures, so the wights could have been any one of these things, I would think.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Wow... this has got to be one of the weirdest threads I've read. And that's really saying something.

As long as we're talking about wraiths, what exactly is the wraith-world?

IIRC, the Wraith world was the spirit world. Doesn't Gandalf say something to Frodo about Glorfindel being in both worlds, or that the Elves live in both worlds because they were creatures of spirit?

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

IIRC, the Wraith world was the spirit world. Doesn't Gandalf say something to Frodo about Glorfindel being in both worlds, or that the Elves live in both worlds because they were creatures of spirit?

That's exactly what I didn't understand about it. Yes, Gandalf does speak of that (I looked it up... the advantage of being in a library ). Does this include all Elves or only those such as Glorfindel who had been in Aman?

But what exactly is the spirit world? Or is it just a simplified way of signifying people who no longer had physical presence in the world (such as the Houseless)... or those like the Eldar who would eventually fade and become invisible to mortal eyes? Is that what it means?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

That's exactly what I didn't understand about it. Yes, Gandalf does speak of that (I looked it up... the advantage of being in a library ). Does this include all Elves or only those such as Glorfindel who had been in Aman?

But what exactly is the spirit world? Or is it just a simplified way of signifying people who no longer had physical presence in the world (such as the Houseless)... or those like the Eldar who would eventually fade and become invisible to mortal eyes? Is that what it means?

I think it included all Elves. The spirit world would be exactly that, no solid body. Didn't Glorfindel appear to Frodo as a brightly lit figure, and Gandalf says this is how he appears on the other side? I think you are right on it. The Elves were so very spiritual in their existance and that was why they faded. Somewhere in the Sil it says that they were consumed by their spirits in the courses of time.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

I think it included all Elves. The spirit world would be exactly that, no solid body. Didn't Glorfindel appear to Frodo as a brightly lit figure, and Gandalf says this is how he appears on the other side? I think you are right on it. The Elves were so very spiritual in their existance and that was why they faded. Somewhere in the Sil it says that they were consumed by their spirits in the courses of time.

Terms like "other side" and "wraith-world" seem somewhat inadequate to me, but I doubt the hobbit would have appreciated an indepth explanation of the process...

Was that in the Sil? Hm, I'll have to go check later. I know I've seen it somewhere...

[Sister Golden Hair]

From the Silmarillion. Houghton Mifflin Edition. 1977

Immortal were the Elves and their wisdom waxed from age to age, and no sickness nor pestilence brought death to them. Their bodies indeed were of the stuff of Earth and could be destroyed; and in those days they were more like to the bodies of Men, since they had not so long been inhabited by the fire of their spirit, which consumes them from within in the courses of time.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

I think it included all Elves.

I think it was just those who had seen Aman. I don't have LotR handy right now, but I'm pretty sure that Gandalf said Glorfindel could see him and the Nazgûl because he had seen the Blessed Realm but I will check later.

[Attalus]

We have a discussion going at SF-Fandom about the Wraith-world and how Sam was able to see in it. It seems to be another aspect to Arda, where physical bodies do not appear, and the spirit is percieved in its true character. Remember, the Ring actually spoke to Gollum in the spirit world on Mount Doom.

Then, suddenly, as before beneath the eaves of the Emil Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than a shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the firre spoke a commanding voice.
'Begone and trouble me no more. If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'

[ItalianLegolas]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Doesn't Gandalf say something to Frodo about Glorfindel being in both worlds, or that the Elves live in both worlds because they were creatures of spirit?

In the original manuscripts, Gandalf says that the Elves in Rivendell dwell in both worlds, and while each world only has half power over them, they have double the power over each world

[The Gaffer]

Another reference in LOTR: the orcs refer to being stripped of their bodies and left naked under the Eye "on the other side".

[me9996]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Wow... this has got to be one of the weirdest threads I've read. And that's really saying something.

As long as we're talking about wraiths, what exactly is the wraith-world?

It's were the wraiths live!
But otherwise I think that it is alot like this one.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I think it was just those who had seen Aman. I don't have LotR handy right now, but I'm pretty sure that Gandalf said Glorfindel could see him and the Nazgûl because he had seen the Blessed Realm but I will check later.

Here it is. From Many Meetings:

And here in Rivendell there live still some of hischief foes: the Elvenwise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both seen and unseen they have great power.

This makes me think what would happen to an elf who had lived in Valinor, if they got stabbed by a Morgul blade.