Christ in Middle Earth

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Yet the elves had to die before they went to the Halls of Mandos and men had to die before they went to wherever they go. Technically Valinor is not heaven in that sense. It's more like paradise.

I think that JRRT was thinking of Eden when he described Valinor: no evil, until the Children brought it there. In this case Feanor. They were even naturally monogamous, until F's daddy had his little problem.

[Durin1]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Yet the elves had to die before they went to the Halls of Mandos and men had to die before they went to wherever they go. Technically Valinor is not heaven in that sense. It's more like paradise.

Tolkien himself alludes to this in his famed letter to Milton Waldman.

[Durin1]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Perhaps. I'm more inclined to think that since Christ was the ultimate of good, you are going to get Christ-like characters that are good. I don't think it was Tolkien's intention to actually make them Christ-like. It just parallels it because of the good.

I have to agree with you here SGH. But of course in the broad context of what is good, anything could be classed as "Christ-like" or "saint-like", for that matter.

[Durin1]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I think this is were Gandalf can be compared to Jesus. He was sent from heaven to earth to help the people of earth. He died to save others and was bought back to life. See the comparison?

Well he wasn't sent from Heaven, since technically Aman wasn't a heaven, it was a kind of earthly paradise, owing to the fact that those who resided there were gods and other immortals who had disseminated some of their (good) "power" into that physical land which was still a part of ME.

BTW, the comparison between Gandalf and Jesus is glaringly obvious - but only on that particular point; you can turn this around by saying that Gandalf was sent from the Valar and not by Eru, the One God - and along with others of the same Order; he unites the Free Peoples of ME through the use of arms against the common enemy (I don't believe that Jesus did this); Gandalf challenges evil head on, Jesus did so through reaffirming Man's faith in the One God and the Holy Spirit etc etc.

[Beren3000]

And how would you refute the comparison between Earendil and Jesus?
Earendil suffered in the Sea until he came to Valinor and all; and in a way he sacrificed his life in ME and was doomed never to return there. By his sacrifice, he earned forgiveness for the Eldar and reconciled them with Eru and the Valar.

Originally Posted by Durin1

he unites the Free Peoples of ME through the use of arms against the common enemy (I don't believe that Jesus did this)

Don't you think that this could work as a metaphor for what Jesus really did?

[Durin1]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

And how would you refute the comparison between Earendil and Jesus?
Earendil suffered in the Sea until he came to Valinor and all; and in a way he sacrificed his life in ME and was doomed never to return there. By his sacrifice, he earned forgiveness for the Eldar and reconciled them with Eru and the Valar.

Don't you think that this could work as a metaphor for what Jesus really did?

I just can't see a comparison between Earendil and Jesus Earendil "suffered" in the Sea? He had hardships just the same as any other Mariner did. He "sacrificed" his life (again like many others) because like many others he had reached desperation point, whereby the people living at the Mouths of Sirion would themselves have been finally overwhelmed by the Might of Morgoth. And even despite sailing the world looking for Aman, he only comes there through the Enchanted Seas by the power of the Silmaril.

Earendil was just an ordinary Man (allbeit, half-elven). Jesus was supposedly the Son of God. And, of course, Earendil doesn't die. He is doomed to stay in Aman, but doom (reference to Aragorn's admonishment of Boromir's take on the word in The Council of Elrond chapter in LoTR: "Doom is near at hand") is not necessarily a bad thing. His stay in Aman is not purgatorial but is an honour granted to him that he should "sail" the heavens with the Silmaril.

With regards to your metaphor point, Beren3000, metaphors can be taken from nearly everything - if you are inclined to look for them. Being a non-Christian, I don't exactly know whether Jesus "united" the peoples in the Middle-East during his time. After his death, Christianity was spread by people such as Paul and Peter to other parts of the world. He puts the Holy Spirit into his followers for them to pass on to others. In this case, you could almost say that the Ring of Gandalf is the Holy Spirit.

So, IMO, we shouldn't try to look too closely at generalised things that could be applied to any religous leader, from any religion.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Durin1

I have to agree with you here SGH. But of course in the broad context of what is good, anything could be classed as "Christ-like" or "saint-like", for that matter.

Well, in this case, I think we are talking about acceptionally good people who went above and beyond the call of duty. Tolkien's story is filled with these kinds of characters, so it is simply coincidence if they appear Christ-like IMO. There is only one Jesus in our world. There are a multitude of Christ-like characters in Tolkien.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Durin1

Earendil was just an ordinary Man (allbeit, half-elven). Jesus was supposedly the Son of God. And, of course, Earendil doesn't die. He is doomed to stay in Aman, but doom (reference to Aragorn's admonishment of Boromir's take on the word in The Council of Elrond chapter in LoTR: "Doom is near at hand") is not necessarily a bad thing. His stay in Aman is not purgatorial but is an honour granted to him that he should "sail" the heavens with the Silmaril.

But Jesus also went to heaven/paradise didn't he. It can be that he didn't ultimatly die either.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Perhaps. I'm more inclined to think that since Christ was the ultimate of good, you are going to get Christ-like characters that are good. I don't think it was Tolkien's intention to actually make them Christ-like. It just parallels it because of the good.

I agree with you, SGH.

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Durin1

With regards to your metaphor point, Beren3000, metaphors can be taken from nearly everything - if you are inclined to look for them. Being a non-Christian, I don't exactly know whether Jesus "united" the peoples in the Middle-East during his time. After his death, Christianity was spread by people such as Paul and Peter to other parts of the world. He puts the Holy Spirit into his followers for them to pass on to others. In this case, you could almost say that the Ring of Gandalf is the Holy Spirit.

I agree...maybe I got a bit carried away.
I still stick by my Earendil-Christ comparison, though. Mainly for the fact that by his mediation, he reconciled the people of ME with the Valar, much the same as Jesus reconciled us with God.

[inked]

I rather suspect the typological approach is best. Earendil stands more typical of Moses in OT manner, I think. But Beren 3000, since Moses was himself a type of the Christ, your comparison has merit as well.

Now here's my take after 30 years of reading and thinking JRRT's available work in sequence of publication:
1)myth was considered by Tolkein to be gleams of Truth as fragmented through human perception, as light through a prism;
2)pre-Christian myths and religions may reflect that gleam of Truth in varying degrees of understanding or oppose it;
3)Judaism in its historic character was the specific agency of special revelation culminating in the historic person of Jesus of Nazareth; and,
4) the fulfilment of all Truth prior to His Incarnation and for all time until His return was found in Jesus Christ and Christianity.

Thus Tolkein was free to utilize those aspects of any and all religions to portray the world in which men dwelt pre-Incarnationally with the Roman Catholic and Christian understanding that some Good was to be present in them and was there because of the eternal action of Christ Jesus (which work as accomplished in time had to have ante-Incarnational and post-Incarnational human perception). He was free to utilize those modes that most appealed to him and western imagination as well as other understandings. Thus in his characters we do see exactly what Beren 3000 is perceiving because of its "applicability" rather than as allegory. (By the by, Aslan is not allegorical. The appropriate term would be, I think, transIncarnational, but that is another thread - TCON). This is what I think Tolkein was expressing in his comment that in the revision the work was consciously a RC and Christian work.

[Beren3000]

Wow! Great post, inked! Really enlightening. However:

Originally Posted by inked

Earendil stands more typical of Moses in OT manner

I always thought that Oromë was Moses.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Wow! Great post, inked! Really enlightening. However:

I always thought that Oromë was Moses.

I'd like a little more info on the Moses-Earendil connection myself.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Well, in this case, I think we are talking about acceptionally good people who went above and beyond the call of duty. Tolkien's story is filled with these kinds of characters, so it is simply coincidence if they appear Christ-like IMO. There is only one Jesus in our world. There are a multitude of Christ-like characters in Tolkien.

I only have a moment now, but I'd like to respond to some of the good points you've been raising SGH. It isn't enough to be simply "good" to be a Christ-figure--Theoden is good, but isn't a Christ-figure. Merry and Pippin are good...and the reunion at the beginning of TT: Flotsam and Jetsam always brings a tear to my eye...but neither is a Christ-figure. There are only 3 characters that fit that bill: Gandalf, Aragorn, and Frodo.

Earendil prefigures Christ after he is set in the heavens for reasons I'll have to tackle tomorrow, but I wouldn't say he is a Christ-figure.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

I'd like a little more info on the Moses-Earendil connection myself.

I agree with Beren. Moses was sent by God, Orome by the Valar and at his own will, two bring forward the people of God/Eru.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

I only have a moment now, but I'd like to respond to some of the good points you've been raising SGH. It isn't enough to be simply "good" to be a Christ-figure--Theoden is good, but isn't a Christ-figure. Merry and Pippin are good...and the reunion at the beginning of TT: Flotsam and Jetsam always brings a tear to my eye...but neither is a Christ-figure. There are only 3 characters that fit that bill: Gandalf, Aragorn, and Frodo.

Well, that's why I said acceptionally good people that went above and beyond the call of duty. I think there are more than just those three. What about Finrod? In the Silmarillion, there are a few, especially Elves that fit the bill.

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

In the Silmarillion, there are a few, especially Elves that fit the bill.

Examples, please?

[Sister Golden Hair]

IMO, Galadriel, Luthien, and yes, Finrod. I'm sure there are others.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

How do you think they are Christ like figures?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

How do you think they are Christ like figures?

It amounts to their behavior, sacrifices and deeds they commited for the good of others and Beleriand.