What Inflicted More Damage: The Silmarils or The Ring?

[Durin1]

I agree with Halbarad in terms of The Sil being written first, and that if the LoTR had never been written (perish the thought!!! ) then maybe we could have had a more fully developed early mythology.

However, I have to disagree with the point about the jewels being created by an Elf and the Ring by a powerful Maia. We are told that Varda herself hallowed the jewels so that they become "holy" so that they won't suffer to be touched by unscrupulous (or tainted) hands. But it is not just a matter of becoming enamoured by the jewels, they in themselves don't possess any clear "power", although, without the silmaril of Beren and Luthien, Earendil would never have been able to get to Valinor.

Basically, it is not so much its "destructive purposes" (after all it took over 460 years since the return of Fingolfin for Beren to take a silmaril from Morgoth's crown), as the implications of their pursuit. Morgoth was overthrown from a direct result of the Nolder's undying hatred of Morgoth and (for the Feanorians at least) to get back the silmarils, which almost become token items, pretty much. The Ring, on the other hand, was full of the evil of Sauron. It would suffer to be touched but only to corrupt and to get back to its master. The Ring therefore ends up as a weapon for controlling the Elves.

As Elrond says: "the elves may flee from him, but never will they listen to him" (or something to that affect).

Another point: the Ring, although spanning two ages, only sporadically effects ME. The War of the Elves and Sauron was followed by a long respite (albeit war was never ending between Sauron and the elves) until Sauron goes to Numenor etc etc. The third ages is untouched my the "Ring" until it is found by Gollum thousands of years later. The Silmarils saga spans basically a few hundred years.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

And the light of the Silmarilli was the light form the Two Trees of Valinor made by Yavanna.

[Earniel]

If you would consider the items themselves, then I would name the Ring the most damaging.

But if you consider all the evil acts that were performed for these items then I judge the Silmarils more destructive and damaging than the Ring.

[Ælfwine]

I think that the Silmarils were more damaging in that they created a situation were we had discord and outright kinslaying among the Elves, and among the Men.
The Ring, on the other hand caused a situation where Elves, Men (at least most of them) and Dwarves were united against Evil.

[Lenya]

Originally Posted by inked

AAaahhhhh, I weep for lack of understanding amongst you all! The ring, the ring you say was only responsible for the 2nd/3rd age. Oh, the horror. Surely you know that had Bilbo not found the ring, and the publisher not demanded a sequel, we should never, Never, NEVER had known of the Silamarilli? Were it not for the One Ring, the whole of the expanse of Middle Earth would have been limited to the Shire and the Lonely Mountain! Indeed, without the One Ring to be found, pursued, and destroyed we should not know of Iluvatar or Ainur or Ea or Arda or.............ought but The hobbit, Bilbo.

That's a very sad thought... but just because the Ring led to the creation of the Silmarills, does not mean that it created more damage.

[Lenya]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

And the light of the Silmarilli was the light form the Two Trees of Valinor made by Yavanna.

They do not have to be evil to inflict damage.

[Wayfarer]

True... but the only damage that the Silmarils actually caused were to Morgoth, to Carcharoth, and to Maglor and Maedhros.

The ring itself caused more damage. The situations which arose with the Silmarils were not a result of the jewels themselves, but the evil natures of those who would possess them.

[Lenya]

No, I don't agree with that. Like I said before, The Silm caused the Elves to be cursed until the end of time. I think that is the worst - no matter what they do, they can't escape from that.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

And the power they both had of lust. If anyone came close to them they they wanted them themselves.

[Lenya]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

And the power they both had of lust. If anyone came close to them they they wanted them themselves.

That's a good point. People also desired the Ring, but its effect was slower.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Not in all cases. Smeagol wanted it as soon as he saw it.

[Lenya]

Yes. I meant in general.

[Sween]

The Ring was basically a failed attempt they Elves were aware of Sauron and rejected him if his plan had worked then things would of been for the worse he would of controled the Elves and that would of been terriable.

The Similis caused a whole load of problems. They are a tragic work in Tolkien

[Wayfarer]

And the power they both had of lust. If anyone came close to them they they wanted them themselves.

Except you're wrong about one vital point: The Silmarils did not create lust. People lusted after them, but that was a wholly different from the way that the ring called to those around it.

The Silmarils had no evil qualities in and of themselves - the events of the first age were not caused by the Silmarils, it was the result of the evil nature already present within men, elves, and vala. The ring, on the other hand, was evil in and of itself.

For that reason alone, the Ring did more damage. Because the problems which are attributed to the ring were actually caused by the ring. The problems you attribute to the Silmarils were caused by Morgoth.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Except you're wrong about one vital point: The Silmarils did not create lust. People lusted after them, but that was a wholly different from the way that the ring called to those around it.

The Silmarils had no evil qualities in and of themselves - the events of the first age were not caused by the Silmarils, it was the result of the evil nature already present within men, elves, and vala. The ring, on the other hand, was evil in and of itself.

For that reason alone, the Ring did more damage. Because the problems which are attributed to the ring were actually caused by the ring. The problems you attribute to the Silmarils were caused by Morgoth.

I agree with this. The Greeks had an ongoing controversy about the events in the Iliad. Was Helen culpable, or was she an unwilling pawn, seduced by the wiles of Aphrodite, simply because she was deemed the world's most beautiful woman? Homer seems to think she was innocent, Euripides, not.

[Lenya]

Morgoth could not have caused all that chaos alone. It is becuase he had the Silm that there were any problems. Without it, he could not have inflicted so much damage - and the damage that has been done, was worse than that caused by the Ring.

[Wayfarer]

Yes. Yes he could have. This is Morgoth we're talking about. He's kind of, you know, Satan? Repeat after me, slowly: Mor-goth is Sa-tan in-car-nate.

The Silmarils were just rocks. Pretty rocks, mind you, but they were rocks all the same. They didn't do anything - except, you know, sparkle and shine. Trying to attribute any of the events in the First Age to the Silmarils is sheer nonsense - those events were caused by Morgoth's influence, whether directly or working through the weaknesses of others.

The Darkening of Valinor? Morgoth.
The Flight of the Noldor? Feanor, influenced by Morgoth's words.
The Kinslaying? Feanor for his rash actions and the Noldor for going along with him.
The Helcaraxe? Feanor for his treachery and Finrod for his stubbornness.
The Ruin of Doriath? Thingol's arrogance and Dior's pride.
The Fall of Gondolin? Maeglin's unnatural lust.

And so on, and so forth. None of the tragic events in the first age, even those directly involving the Silmarils, were caused by the Silmarils.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

If you look at it that way then the Ring didn't do anything either.

Destruction of Eregion: Sauron and his troops
Slaying of the elves and Men during the Last Alliance: Sauron and his troops
Not destroying the Ring: Isildur
Smeagol killing Deagol: Smeagols lust for the Ring
etc.

[Wayfarer]

Except the ring had the power to influence the minds of those around it in a way the Silmarils were simply incapable of.

Isildur was incapable of destroying the ring because the ring was influincing his mind.
Smeagol lusted after the ring because it was influincing his mind.

etc. The Ring was capable of affecting people, and did so on a regular basis to bring about negative effects. The Ring actually caused things to happen directly or indirectly. The Silmarils didn't.

[MasterMothra]

I would have to agree with Wayfarer. The Silmarils were only capable of affecting people superficially, unlike the One Ring, which actively used people in one way or another to acheive and end. Simply put, The One Ring had a motive, the Silmarils did not.