Theological Opinions

[Andúril]

Nope. Not even a tiny bit.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by inked

God did not intend the Fall in the sense I think you suggest. The use of intention smuggles in the will of God. If he intended that mankind Fall, mankind was not free. If he intended that mankind not Fall, mankind was not free. If God created mankind with truly free will, then the possibilities were only two: obedience or disobedience. If mankind made a truly free choice, the outcome was independent of God's intent by a grant from God. This is why Christianity has such emphasis on choice. Our choices matter. We bear responsibility for our choices.

i see... in my mind a better moral test would be asking one to make an informed choice, as opposed to one only involving obedience/disobedience to an authority figure... after all, if one was to just choose obedience from day one, what would they learn?

it is one thing to obey just because you were told, and quite another to take a course of action because you understand, from experience, that it is the proper course to take

i also don't think that god desiring a certain outcome necessarily removes free will... if he had wanted a true "free" choice, he could have left out the serpent entirely and just told adam and eve about the tree... instead, an extra element was added to "push" them towards a certain decision... is this completely free?

Now, this is not a criticism but a seeking after clarification, are all opinions created equally?

absolutely, i'm not in any way religious... but i appreciate the moral philosophy of many of the great faiths, from christianity to buddhism... not to mention the vast degree of interpretation that goes on within them

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Brownie, after reading your comments on the possibility that God intended mankind to fall - what purpose do you think this would this achieve? Just wondering what your thoughts were, here.

i'd like to think that he wanted his creation to "grow-up"... not just be an obediant follower... to make bad decisions, be left on it's own, and find it's way to "a moral life" by experiencing both the good and bad and making an informed decision on which course to take in life

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i see... in my mind a better moral test would be asking one to make an informed choice, as opposed to one only involving obedience/disobedience to an authority figure... after all, if one was to just choose obedience from day one, what would they learn?

Just time for a quick response, then I'm off for a quick rest before the kiddos come home to hopefully get rid of this cold

Brownie - It WAS an informed choice - they KNEW God (as well as humans can). What their choice was, was calling God (whom they knew as good) a liar, and someone who would hold out on something good for them...

[Mercutio]

Somebody mentioned earlier "catholic"?

All Christians are members of the small-c catholic church (meaning universal). It's mentioned in the Nicean and Apostle's creeds (the last section).

"...I believe in the holy catholic church ..."
"...I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church..."

[Nurvingiel]

*slaps forehead* I knew I had said that before!

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i'd like to think that he wanted his creation to "grow-up"... not just be an obediant follower... to make bad decisions, be left on it's own, and find it's way to "a moral life" by experiencing both the good and bad and making an informed decision on which course to take in life

Yes, I see what you're saying, and I think that's kinda how things have worked out. As I said, I think altho God didn't "intend" it, I think He knew it would be that way, given the nature of how He made us. "Intend" is an interesting word ...

Just a thought on "growing up" : The Bible talks about growing up in the faith, and in fact, one of Paul's letters chides his readers about remaining babies and staying on milk when they should have moved on to "meat" by now ...

One of the problems with our relationship with God is that there is no one true analogy ... that's why God uses so many (God is to us as a potter is to the pot he creates; as a father is to a child; as a shepherd is to a sheep; etc.) The most common one that people (non-Christians, esp.) know of is father to child (given things like the Lord's Prayer, which starts with "Our Father ...", and the fact that God is called "Father" and Jesus "Son", this is very understandable). However, this particular analogy fails in one point (at least), altho it is an excellent analogy in many ways. The point where it fails is the transition to adulthood.

In human families, it is right and good and proper for a child to become a peer to his parents when he/she reaches adulthood; in fact, it's terribly wrong if he/she DOESN'T make this transition. However, it is just a fact that we will NEVER become peers with God, and THIS is right and proper and good. Altho we can grow and learn tremendously, it is just a simple FACT that we are created beings, and He is the Creator. (I'm operating under the assumption that Christianity is true, BTW ). And people sometimes act like it's somehow conceited of God to be the Creator, and like He's somehow holding us down and not letting us become peers. I'm sorry, but it's not conceited, it's just simple fact - a created being will never become its creator! And if it is a fact that God created us, then it is a fact that we'll never become His peers - and there's nothing wrong with that, or with us! We're glorious creations - glorious! and with such great potentital and beauty! Should a horse complain that he's not a person, or should he get on with things and revel in the glorious creature that he is? Why argue with reality? Complaints about it certainly won't change it! As if enough of us complain about the situation, then God will just quietly shuffle off, saying "Well, I thought I made the universe, but I guess I was mistaken!"

People will make a complaint about Christianity along the lines of "Well, we need to grow up and make our own choices and become independant! I don't need a God to tell me what to do!" Well, we DO grow up and make our own choices and become independent - but if the reality is that God created the universe a certain way, I think it's better to accept it and run with it, then sit in a corner and complain and deny your life and reality.

I'll eventually get into the reasons why I believe Christianity is true over on the "why you believe ..." thread, but I hope at least I laid to rest the objections made to Christianity along this line. Does what I said make sense to the non-Christians here? Do you see that Christianity is NOT some made-up philosophy that was developed by some people sitting around a campfire, shooting the breeze, but rather a claim of what reality truly is?

Brownie can say to his kids, "Kiddos, I really want you to grow up and learn and make your own decisions, and I want you to be able to breathe under water without any equipment." That's a good wish (I do that in my dreams, and it's great fun!), but the fact is, his kids will die if they make this their goal. They might splutter along at first, and cough up water, and make progress by being able to stay under water longer - but if they pursue it, they'll die. And that's one of the truth claims of Christianity - if you pursue the false reality (and the one that Satan puts forth as truth) of "you are your own completely independent creature and can completely control your destiny", then ... you'll die . And stay in death forever, because of your free-will choices

And another truth-claim of Christianity is that if you pursue God and the reality of your status as His creation - then you'll live. You'll live! You'll live forever, in fulness of joy and in right relation with truth and reality and the One that made you to be in close, loving, joyful fellowship with Him And with JRR Tolkien, too!

Reality can be verbally denied, but not actually denied.

And these two truth-claims are logically true, if Christianity's claims are true - that God "was and is and is to come" (i.e., is self-existent (non-created) ), and created the universe, and is holy and righteous and loving and powerful and all-knowing, and created us as beings with free-will and tremendous capabilities, and knew that we would fall, and provided a way to reconcile us to Him, if we so choose, because He loves us so much.



refpost

[PippinTook]

Full praise to Rian and Inked. Y'all rock. I've been swarming the What I believe and other threads and I think I like this one best. I love theology and talking about religion and just thinking about it in general. My dad (who I take after in a very uncanny way) is a bible Professor at a University, and he is my major role model. He wrote his doctoral thesis on the Role of the Spirit in Revelation and is a fair theologian himself. He is reading Mere Christianity with the intent that I should read it next semester (I'm homeschooled, so he's my teacher) though I wish that I had already read it.

Anywho, I don't think that Adam and Eve had a certain knowledge of death, or evil, considering it was the 'Knowledge of Good and Evil' tree they ate from. There was evil that exsisted, Satan was a being by that time and had turned from God. But had Adam and Eve not eaten of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil they would have never had the Knowledge of Good and Evil, which is what we have today. We know what's wrong and what's right. I believe that had they no eaten the fruit, and all their descendants had not turned away all the way down to us today, everything would be perfect and there would be n temptaton and sin.

Another thing brought up, whether God had intended for this to happen. I disagree with Brownjenkins, I don't think he simply intended it so that his children would grow up and learn their life lessons. He probably intended for everything to remain perfect and unspoiled, the way he created it. But he did not want robots or little toys that could not have their say in it all. So, he gave them free will. But, you can't have free will if all there is is good, you would still be a robot. He had to leave them a choice, but he still told them it was bad and not to eat it, so they had an informed choice.

Okay, I think I just repeated what everyone else said, but it made it easier for me at least to understand when I wrote it all out. Hats off to you!

[Nurvingiel]

Great post Pippin! Especially the last paragraph. I must say I agree with that.

[brownjenkins]

per your post rÃ*an... i'll spare quoting the whole thing

this is where i basically disagree with christianity... i think the goal of any creator would be to create someone who would eventually become a peer... this does not mean that the creation has to necessarily ever develop to the point where it can physically equal "god"... but it can, and should develop to the point where the creation can say "i no longer need my creator"

this also does not mean that the creator would necessarily be cast aside... while i have not reached this point with my children yet, i have with my parents... the point where you know you don't need them anymore, yet you still love and appreciate them for where they brought you to... a love which is arguably stronger than any before, because there are no strings attached... no necessity

that is my "reality"

that said, i can appreciate your pov too... thanks for spelling it out so completely

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by PippinTook

Another thing brought up, whether God had intended for this to happen. I disagree with Brownjenkins, I don't think he simply intended it so that his children would grow up and learn their life lessons. He probably intended for everything to remain perfect and unspoiled, the way he created it. But he did not want robots or little toys that could not have their say in it all. So, he gave them free will. But, you can't have free will if all there is is good, you would still be a robot. He had to leave them a choice, but he still told them it was bad and not to eat it, so they had an informed choice.

but since the apple gave one "knowledge of good and evil"... and you can't have free will with only good... how could they have "free will" before eating the apple?

i think if you read the passages without any embelishment, basically god asked them to do what they were told without explanation of the "why" behind it... is this "free will"?

it seems to me that eating the apple may actually have been the "gift" of "free will" that god was hoping for

[PippinTook]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
but since the apple gave one "knowledge of good and evil"... and you can't have free will with only good... how could they have "free will" before eating the apple?
i think if you read the passages without any embelishment, basically god asked them to do what they were told without explanation of the "why" behind it... is this "free will"?

it seems to me that eating the apple may actually have been the "gift" of "free will" that god was hoping for

That's a good question. God told them it was bad to eat, so it was a test of their free will, whether they chose to obey him or not. It would be a sin to disobey God, therefore they had the choice of not to sin, or to eat the apple which they knew would be sinning.

About the second part, how God just told them to do it without telling them why, that is exactly right. Faith in God is not something that is explained and laid out for us. It's blind, we're not supposed to ask a bunch of questions about it and then have faith and obey. The apple was a test, and they failed it.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by PippinTook

we're not supposed to ask a bunch of questions about it

i think i'd fail pretty miserably myself

point taken though... it is certainly a valid way to interpret it

i wonder if we have any hebrew mooters?

from my understanding, hebrews do not view "sin" or at least "original sin" in the same way as christians... i'd be curious to hear what the hebrew take on genesis is

[PippinTook]

Thanks

I'd like to hear from some hebrew mooters too, actually. I have a jewish friend, but I'm not sure where she lies on all that, we haven't known eachother all that long and I thought a lengthy religious discussion might throw her off ;-)

Another friend of mine, who doesn't really have a religion though she doesn't claim aithiesm, was talking to me last night and asked why all the islamic and buddhist people, who have been brought up to believe that and not Jesus, are going to Hell when they don't live in a predominantly Christian environment. She said it was things like that that discouraged her from Christianity.

Well, I had absolutely no answer to that, do you think any of you can shed some light on that?

[Lief Erikson]

The original word for "knowledge" that is used in the ancient manuscripts in the part about "the knowledge of good and evil" is actually a reference to something very intimate, as in an intimate knowledge, a personal acquaintance.

I believe that Adam and Eve already had a knowledge of good and evil, before they ate of the fruit. They had this knowledge in the same way that angels know of good and evil. They only do good, and they never have done evil. Good is their nature. They can be tempted, but their nature is automatically to do good. Doing evil would be an aberration to their natural behavior. God made them so that evil was far from a necessary behavior for them to participate in. Just as when we have a sinful nature prevalent within us, our natural thought and behavior patterns are self serving and sinful, so when God's righteous nature is prevalent within us, our natural thoughts and behavior patterns are righteous and in keeping with God's own character.

In my opinion, freedom dwells simply in that one acts according to the nature one was created with. Something that forces me to no longer act in freedom according to my nature is a disruptor of free will. In this way, sin causes us to no longer have free will. It forces us no longer to act according to our nature. As the Apostle Paul said, "my desire is to do good, but the evil within me, that is what I do." Sin destroys free will, that is, the freedom to act according to the nature God has given us.

I personally am a Calvinist. I think that God has absolute control of all the events that transpire in heaven and on Earth, that no person does anything to anyone that is outside of his divine, sovereign plan. Freedom, as in freedom from God deciding things for us before we decide them, doesn't make sense to me. Any freedom that is freedom in decision making from God, he must have left up to chance. As I do not believe that chance rules the universe, but that God rules the universe, we cannot be free from God's divine plan.

God created us with a good nature. When we sin, we lose the power to act any longer according to that good nature. Therefore sin destroys our natural freedom. That freedom is restored when we come to God again. I believe it says in the scripture, "He whom God frees is free indeed!" God also has free will in the same way that we will. He is just as free as we will be, once the sinful nature is destroyed. At that point we will have absolute freedom to act according to our nature. God has absolute freedom to act according to his nature right now. His free will does not include the possibility of doing sin. God's nature is love, so his actions cannot help but be loving. God cannot sin. We will become like God, and as we do become like God, through the process of sanctification we come closer and closer to him and the sinful nature within us is destroyed.

On a sidenote, I actually must say that I think the normal interpretation of free will calls for a rather cruel God. It shows a rather uncaring nature, for he would be creating us, and then not himself making a decision as to whether we go to heaven or hell. He would be reaching out to all of us, but he would be leaving it to chance (from God's perspective, if he doesn't make our decisions, then our decisions on this matter must be the same as chance to him) whether we go to heaven or hell. He knows in advance how the dice will roll, but he doesn't choose to do anything about it.

I know that this is not RÃ*an's view. Hers of free will and predestination is different, for she accepts a form of predestination as well. However, I'm responding to the classical view of free will: the view that our actions are not controlled by God's decision-making.

Actually, I would say that in one way our actions are not controlled by God's decision making. It's like writing a book. I am writing the characters and what they do, but they all act exactly according to their own natures. I am not controlling them, for I do not make them do things that they would not logically do. However, at the same time I have absolute control. So at the same time as I choose exactly what will happen, the characters have complete freedom to act according to their natures.

Essentially, they do act, but I also acted there, and they only act because I act. So while I have absolute control, they have a complete ability to act according to their own natures. So they are free, not restrained by me at all, while at the same time I predestine.

I'll continue this further in the next post.

[Lief Erikson]

People naturally say next, "well, if God is in control of everything we do, then what's the point in making us? Why not just create robots, things that would serve him just as well."


I do not believe that for something to live, it must have freedom from the Creator. The Breath of Life to me does not require freedom from Life. I don't believe anyone doubts God's ability to create creatures that have life, but which do only his will. The question is, "what is the point?"

That leads back to the question about "what is freedom?" Jesus had free will, don't you agree? Yet every single thing he said was something he heard from the Father. He was the Word of God. In fact, every single thing that exists now in the universe was created by God speaking. Words are behind everything. Those words of creation have a source, and that source is God. We come from those words. Everything we do or say was spoken into being by someone else- God. "Without [the Word], nothing was made that has been made." When God speaks, he expresses truth. Jesus said, "I am the truth", and it is written of him that he is the Word. From the Word comes truth. Now, truth brings freedom, according to scripture. Therefore in God's words that flow out to us, even if every word we say is from God (as with Jesus), it is freedom that is flowing from God. This seems to me to show that the divine idea of freedom consists of something different from freedom from God, freedom to make decisions separate from God. In fact, you'll find in scripture that the idea of closest commitment to God constantly is bound to complete and absolute submission. As we mirror Jesus, coming into closer and closer union with God, our thoughts become God's thoughts, and we submit to God more and more completely. We are all members of one spiritual body, according to scripture. The body does exactly what the mind tells it to do. Jesus described himself as the head. Hence, we can see that even in this complete freedom comes complete submission- complete freedom means that we do exactly as God wants us to do.

What is the point? The point is love. While it is unloving to let someone's fate depend on chance, God didn't leave us with that doom. He created us in love and in love predestined us for a glorious future of complete union with him.

If the idea of predestination still seems distasteful, let me put it this way. Even God is predestined- eternally predestined, as my father puts it. He has no choice but to act in accordance with his nature, and the freedom to act according to the nature he gave us is the freedom that he will give all those he chooses and predestines for glory. God's nature is love, and he cannot act separate from that. He wants all of us to be joined with him in the same predestined freedom.

Freedom, if freedom is Free Will separate from God's Will, is meaningless. How can God create something that he has no control over, unless he leaves its development to chance? And how is leaving something's destiny up to chance loving? In my house, we'd call that sloppiness .


Though an analogy to an author writing a book may fall short in several ways, there are several useful aspects in which it's similar to predestination, which I find helpful as a writer. Sometimes when people ask, "how can God love a robot?", I remember my own feeling for the characters in my book. This is different from God's creation, for these characters don't have the Breath of Life. Yet even so, I find myself loving my own characters deeply, sometimes being forced to the point of tears by their behavior, or by what happens to them. My own love for the characters in the writing I do causes me to get an idea for what God feels for his characters, those who have the Breath of Life in them, his predestined characters who have their real struggles and blessings that he's planned for them. If I can love my own created nonliving characters, how much more will Love love His living, predestined characters?

Let me refer once again to the Biblical principle of submission and God's absolute dominance, that which we can see is actually freedom. Predestination is freedom. Free Will without predestination is chance. Chance without predestination is chaos, not divine love.

May the love of Christ come to all on this thread!

~Lief

[PippinTook]

ROCK ON LEIF!

That was fabulous. I have nothing to say but bravo and kudos to you for saying all that. A lot of people don't want to think about that because it seems to put a leash on us. ANywho, go you *applaudes*

[brownjenkins]

i can't say i agree with you lief... but it's a very interesting piece of logic and well-developed

personally, i don't think we do have "free will"... i believe our course is determined by cause, effect and interaction with our environment (and so is god's, if there is one)... that said, since we are far from being able to predict the complexities of these relationships... our perception is "free will"... and perception is reality as far as existance goes

[Nurvingiel]

Great post Lief... and I agree with you! What's the world coming to. Just kidding, we agree on loads of things. I read it through and through, and I think it's worth reading more than once. (I chose a time when comprehension is high and brain cell death is low. )

[Rían]

Lief - I'm running out of time, but I wanted to give a quick response (since you were so kind as to ask my opinion ) -

but first - I'm so glad you brought up that point about "knowledge" - the word means an intimate, physical knowing of, not just a "head" knowlege of, evil

Now on to free will - we've talked about this briefly before via PM, and I'll reiterate some of the points. (yeah, right, like I can be brief on a subject like this! ) I differ with you in that I think God is more "hands-off" on our actions, altho He KNOWS what they will be. IOW, I think God truly allows people to choose (within parameters He sets - IOW, limited free choice, as we see in Job, where Satan has freedom to operate WITHIN parameters that God has set.) I see overwhelming evidence of this, mainly in verses like Joshua's great admonition to the people of Israel "CHOOSE NOW this day whom you will serve..." and verses like "well done, good and faithful servant!" - how is it well-done if it is not a choice? And I see all over Isaiah and Lamentations and Jeremiah that God Himself suffers pain by our wrong choices ... VERY mysterious and amazing, and obviously a choice on God's part to make Himself open to suffering by our choices.

Now to be fair - because I'm NOT interested in winning debates, but only in finding truth - there are verses on the other side, such as in Proverbs - "the king's heart is like channels of water in God's hand - He turns it which way He wills" and of course, Pharaoh. But Pharaoh hardened his OWN heart many times, before it is said that God hardened his heart. And I think rulers are exceptions in some way, in special circumstances. And of course there's predestination.

Basically, it boils down to I think we'll NEVER fully understand this - after all, we're talking about an omniscient and omnipotent God - yet to me, the evidence CLEARLY falls on the side of humans having a vast amount (altho limited) of free will choices. And all this is idle talk, unless we are aware of - what choices, whether I have them or not, will I make TODAY?

I'd like to close the post with the lyrics of a song by Chris Rice :

"Life Means So Much", by Chris Rice

Every day is a journal page
Every man holds a quill and ink
And there's plenty of room for writing in
All we do and believe and think

So will you compose a curse
Or will today bring the blessings?
Fill the page with rhyming verse
Or some random sketchings?

(chorus)
Teach us to count the days
Teach us to make the days count
Lead us in better ways
Somehow our souls forgot
Life means so much
Life means so much.

Every day is a bank account
And time is our currency
So no one's rich, nobody's poor
We get twenty-four hours each
So how are you gonna spend?
Will you invest or squander?
Try to get ahead
Or help someone's who's under?

(chorus)

Has anybody lived who knew the value of a life?
And didn't He give His own to show the worth of yours and mine?

(chorus)

Every day is a gift you've been given,
Make the most of the time every minute you're livin'

(repeat and fade)

AND APPLY!