10-10-2004, 02:46 PM | #21 | |
Elf Lord
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You can deceive without lying just by withholding some information. (Usual telemarketers ruse ) But you can't lie without deceiving. In a way a deceiver is a liar, but it not the same thing according to the law. So, Forkbeard's depiction of Sauron's tactic ( Saying X and doing X, but along comes Z and Y, which he "forgot" to mention) is more in tune with his name : Sauron the Deceiver. Last edited by Olmer : 10-10-2004 at 02:47 PM. |
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10-10-2004, 02:48 PM | #22 |
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As an utterly minor point, the deception of Gorlim is actually Morgoth in the Lay of Leithian (although I believe it is Sauron in the Sil) so there is some doubt as to whether Sauron did it.
But he definitely lies to Ar-Pharazon with the whole "you will become the ruler of the West" bit.
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10-11-2004, 06:23 AM | #23 | |
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So, thank you CC for making my point. If he lied to Ar-Pharazon, he is a LIAR!!!
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10-11-2004, 08:17 AM | #24 | ||
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Does it really matter if Sauron is a liar? I think it's pretty clear that he didn't care about the Dwarves. He either would have given them Moria, and left them to the Balrog (if he knew about it). Or gone back on his promise because he's evil.
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10-11-2004, 08:19 AM | #25 |
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i think technically sauron was a liar,
remember after the ruin of beleriand, he humbled himself, and yet would not suffer to be taken to valinor, to receive the judgement of mandos... |
10-11-2004, 11:56 AM | #26 | |
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And the only reason we are actually discussing if Sauron Gorthaur; the servant of Morgoth the Black Enemy of the world, and whom in his own time became a dark lord himself, who laid waste to Eregion, caused the downfall of Numenor, Slew Finrod Felagund, and became the greatest evil in ME since the defeat of his master; is a liar, which he clearly is, is due to an earlier post by ForkBeard. Gotta love that sarcasm.
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Audaces fortuna juvat Last edited by Fenir_LacDanan : 10-20-2004 at 10:43 PM. |
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10-17-2004, 12:35 PM | #27 | ||
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YOu have the equation backward, I'm afraid. A liar is a deceiver, not every deception is necessarily based on a lie. To take a LoTR example: Bilbo has Frodo wear his mail shirt under his travel cloak, "There's more about you now than appears on the surface." That's a deception, but it isn't a lie. FB Last edited by Forkbeard : 10-17-2004 at 12:38 PM. |
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10-17-2004, 12:38 PM | #28 | |
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FB |
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10-17-2004, 01:02 PM | #29 | |
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10-17-2004, 01:03 PM | #30 | |
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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10-17-2004, 01:52 PM | #31 | |
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In a later letter though he seems to indicate that Sauron deceived the Valar from the beginning and that his contrition was false. I can't find that one right now, but will try to take time to do so. In any event, since Tolkien isn't clear about it, I'm not sure we can be either. FB |
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10-17-2004, 01:55 PM | #32 | |
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b) even if we grant your point, it doesn't do anything to address the overall point I was making. |
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10-17-2004, 02:03 PM | #33 | |
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10-20-2004, 10:42 AM | #34 | |
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Steady on slick, steady on. If you want to brawl, then you perhaps picked the wrong mooter. I aint actually here for that mate, so anyway. Have you read the Silmarillion? Because if you haven't then its like trying to sprint before you can crawl, mate. In sil, the text of which you have already stated that you are "unfamiliar with", Sauron is quite clearly a liar, because, geeeeeeeeeee he LIES to everyone!! [Edited rest of post -- azalea]
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Audaces fortuna juvat Last edited by azalea : 10-22-2004 at 02:40 PM. Reason: Please stay on topic and don't post flame bait -- azalea |
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10-21-2004, 12:36 AM | #35 | |||
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B) You might have noted that this forum is Lord of the Rings forum, no extra knowledge is assumed, so when someone asks you to explain a reference to the Silm it is polite to answer with the details instead of this kind of material, don't you agree? Quote:
Second, though, is that the story of Gorlim does not establish your point. a) as already pointed out to you by the Count, there is a different version of the story elsewhere. More importantly b) Gorlim makes Sauron the offer--release me and my wife from your service and I will tell where to find Barahir. Sauron agrees, Gorlim spills his guts; and then Sauron tells him his wife is dead, and Gorlim will be released from Sauron's service too....by a cruel death. Deception? Absolutely yes! Lie? No, no lie is involved. And most interestingly is that unlike your characterization of Sauron, Sauron only agreed to Gorlim's offer, he made no promises and then did the opposite as you described. Last edited by azalea : 10-22-2004 at 02:42 PM. Reason: edited portion of quoted post that was edited in the original. |
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10-21-2004, 01:23 AM | #36 | |
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[Edited] Sauron lies to Ar Pharazon in Akalabeth. He says that he can invade Valinor and live forever, and that he can defeat the Valar in battle, things which Sauron knows to be false. Therefore, he lied to Ar Pharazon. A two year old would understand that. Why do you keep defending Sauron? [Edited] And if you, as you have done, make a claim such as, say, Sauron is not a liar, we should be free as mooters to draw upon ANY relevant data so as to explore the point in detail. [Edited]
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Audaces fortuna juvat Last edited by azalea : 10-22-2004 at 02:47 PM. Reason: Off topic discussion of personal disagreement. |
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10-21-2004, 02:06 AM | #37 |
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Please discuss the topic without further personal attacks, thank you.
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10-22-2004, 12:21 AM | #38 | |||
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[Edited portion of quoted post]
[Edited portion of response] I've attempted to be neutral in my posts to you, yet you seem to think that I'm itchin' for a fight. I'm itchin' for a good discussion, but not a brawl, but that it obviously not how I'm being perceived. [Edited] Quote:
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[Edited portions of response to post that has now been edited.] I merely pointed out that for the purposes of this forum, intimate knowledge of the SIlm isn't required. [Edited] Read the forum rules. Quote:
And of course you're free to draw on any relevant data. [Edited] So back to the question: where do we have Sauron lieing by promising A, and then not delivering, as in the situation with the Dwarves? FB Last edited by azalea : 10-22-2004 at 02:53 PM. Reason: Edited off topic personal disagreements and those statements that are no longer relevant due to editing. |
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10-22-2004, 10:27 AM | #39 | |
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10-22-2004, 01:25 PM | #40 | |
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Plausible...
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