Some Questions Regarding States/Provinces

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Dark Lord Sauron
-Rhovanion. I'm not going on much here so bear with me. What was the exact date of the founding of Vidugavia's kingdom? I know it had to be sometime before 1366.

Tolkien doesn't say when it was founded. Minalcar became Regent of Gondor in 1240 and in 1248 he conducted his cleansing campaign in which he destroyed all the camps of the Easterlings he could find and chastized the disloyal Northman princes. His chief ally was Vidugavia, and in 1250 Minalcar sent his son Valacar as an ambassador to Vidugavia's kingdom. Valacar married Vidugavia's daughter, Vidumavi. According to "The Heirs of Elendil" in The Peoples of Middle-earth, Eldacar, the son of Valacar and Vidumavi, was born in 1255. "The Heirs of Elendil" is the only source we have for the birth years of the kings of Arnor and Gondor, but some of the details of the entries conflict with the LoTR appendices, so the information must be used carefully.

What was the exact nature of the relationship between Rhovanion and Gondor? Previously, Gondor had wiped out an Easterling force in that area, so was it encouraging migration from the Northmen? Or did they come on their own will? Did Gondor cede southern Rhovanion to them (I do not believe so since when the Wainriders overran s. Rhovanion, it was Gondorian)?

Gondor appears to have first come into contact with the Northmen during the period of 490-667 (the end of the reign of Ostoher, father of Tarostar/Romendacil I, through the end of the reign of Turambar, son of Tarostar). Ostoher died in 492, two years after the Easterlings first attacked Gondor. Tarostar led the defense of Gondor and he defeated the Easterlings, taking the name Romendacil when he became king in 492.

Romendacil was slain by Easterlings in a second wave of attacks in 541, and Turambar (his son) defeated the Easterlings, winning "much territory eastwards."

It was probably Turambar who negotiated the first treaties with the Northmen and gave some of their princes land between Greenwood the Great (as it was then known) and Mordor (which was still under Gondor's control).

If Vidugavia's ancestors were the Free Men of the North who gradually spread down the eastern side of Greenwood during the first centuries of the Third Age, then they probably settled in what became his kingdom before Minalcar's time. They may already have been there in the 6th century when Turambar was whomping the Easterlings.

But since the narrative in Appendix A says of Vidugavia that "he called himself King of Rhovanion", it may be that Vidugavia had established his rule over other Northman princes, and that prior to his time there had been several competing tribes or clans in the same region with no clear leadership.

Hence, Vidugavia could have established his dominance over the other Northmen in his area as early as 1225 or as late as 1248, if we assume he was about middle-aged when his daughter married Valacar.

Rhovanion streched from Mirkwood to the Celduin river. Did it reach as far as Rhun? I do not believe so but I have nothing to back that up.

All we have to go on is the statement in the appendix that "his own realm lay between Greenwood and the River Celduin". I agree that his realm probably did not extend into Rhun (which would have lain beyond Celduin) but it may extended TO Rhun. Keep in mind, however, that what we call Rhun is technically the name of a direction on the maps. "Rhun" just means "East", and "Sea of Rhun" is the only example of a specific place-name which incorporates "Rhun" into it (except possibly Rhudaur, but Rhudaur was not in the eastern regions of Middle-earth, so it was not in what we call Rhun).

Aragorn also said he had been to "Rhun and Harad where the stars are strange" (the stars probably just applying to Harad, the south), so Rhun could also have been used the way we use "the Orient" to speak of central and eastern Asia.

-Khand, Harad, etc. Is there any sort of list of rulers for these tribes?

None of which I am aware.

What was the relationship between the Near Harad and Far Harad?

One was closer to Gondor and Mordor than the other. Near Harad probably represents a region with which Gondor had close relations, whereas Far Harad probably just represents a region which lent military support to Gondor's enemies. That is just my guess.

-Wainriders. Were exactly did the Wainriders come from? Were they destroyed after the Battle of the Camp, or did they continue to survive? If so, where? After Gondor defeated them in battle in 1899 did it bother to reclaim southern Rhovanion? Did the Wainriders maintain any sort of presence in Rhovanion between 1899 and the invasion with the Harad and Khand?

The Wainriders were a group of Easterlings who migrated westward, eventually crossing the Celduin and conquering Vidugavia's Kingdom of Rhovanion (some 600 years after his time, of course). They probably were like the Huns, Mongols, and Turks: that is, a group of related tribes, speaking the same language and practicing the same culture, who had been united under a single powerful leader.

Sauron was the real power behind the Wainriders, although Appendix A only says they were stirred up by his emissaries -- implying, I think, that they had become organized before he approached them (and it may be that he only approached them because he saw they HAD become so well organized).

The Northmen were devastated by the Great Plague in 1635 (that is the correct year according to "Cirion and Eorl" in Unfinished Tales, so the plagued was transmitted to Gondor by the Northmen the next year). The Plague came during winter and affected both men and horses. It sounds very much like a respiratory illness or flu, rather than something like Bubonic Plague.

Over half the Northmen died from the Great Plague, but apparently the Easterlings suffered heavily too, because it would be another 200 years before they were strong enough to attack the Northmen.

One would think the Northmen could have recovered their numbers in 200 years, but then, what would their population have been like if the Great Plague had not affected them at all?

The Wainriders were never fully defeated. That is, Gondor never recovered the lost lands. All Gondor was ever able to achieve was the destruction of their main power. But Gondor itself (and the Eotheod, who had emerged as a new, separate people by the end of the Wainrider Wars) was too weak to recover the eastern lands.

Continued in next message...

[Michael Martinez]

Continued from previous message...

Originally posted by Dark Lord Sauron
-Balchoth. They are listed as living east of Mirkwood. Would this mean that they lived north of the Celduin, somewhere near Erebor? Or did they live within the area of the former Kingdom of Rhovanion? If so, where did they migrate from?

They probably lived in the former Kingdom of Rhovanion. The name is a compound formed from the Westron word balc ('horrible') and the Sindarin word hoth ('horde'), according to a note in "Cirion and Eorl". The narrative concludes that they were related to the Wainriders, but it does not say so with complete certainty.

However, there is a curious passage in the narrative which states that Cirion learned the Balchoth were "slaying or driving north up the River Running and into the Forest the remnant of the Northmen, friends of Gondor that still dwelt east of Mirkwood". Christopher appends a note to this passage in which he writes: "From an earlier passage in this text one gains the impression that there were no Northmen left in the lands east of Mirkwood after the victory of Calimehtar over the Wainriders on the Dagorlad in the year 1899".

One way to reconcile the two accounts is to suggest that the Wainriders had withdrawn or been driven east after Sauron fled Dol Guldur in 2063. A tribe of Northmen other than the Eotheod (say, the descendants of the enslaved Northmen who never escaped from the Wainriders) could have finally overthrown the Wainriders in another, unreferenced rebellion (the rebellion in 1899 is said to have failed).

Sauron had apparently been colonizing southern Mirkwood with Easterlings since his rising Circa 1050. The Balchoth, by 2510, were living in southern Mirkwood and between Mirkwood and the Dagorlad. But their migration path was probably the same as that of the Wainriders, coming over the Celduin from the northeastern regions of Middle-earth.

-Ithilien. I had assumed that Mordor's conquest of Ithilien only streched as far west as Minas Morgul. However, I have read that all Ithilien was conquered prior to the War of the Ring. Is this true? If so, wouldn't the forces of Mordor be practically at the gates of Osgiliath even before war was declared?

Gondor withdrew its people from Ithilien prior to the War of the Ring but maintained secret garrisons of Rangers there who prevented Sauron from fully claiming and colonizing the land.

-Also, I thought it interesting that you considered Gondor to be symbolic of the Western Roman Empire. Personally I thought there was a load of history that supported it as the Eastern half:

Gondor is, technically, in the west portion of of the "Old World" of Middle-earth (as opposed to the "New World", the Americas, which are not featured in The Lord of the Rings).

Tolkien modelled Arnor and Gondor on ancient Egypt, but he utilized some elements from Roman and Byzantine history (and possibly culture) as well.

There is no one-to-one correlation between any of the nations of Middle-earth and historical peoples/nations.

[Dark Lord Sauron]

OK, I think my questions have been narrowed down to the Kingdom of Rhovanion and the Wainriders.

First, the Kingdom of Rhovanion. It was shaped in three possible ways:

1. http://www.filespace.org/saurondestroys/Rhovanion1.jpg

Rhovanion streches from Mirkwood to the portion of the Celduin that runs from north to south, thus providing an eastern border.

2. http://www.filespace.org/saurondestroys/Rhovanion2.jpg

Rhovanion streches from Mirkwood to the Sea of Rhun. The eastern territories may have had Easterlings, making this claim not so reliable. Nevertheless, it all fits within the Celduin river.

3. http://www.filespace.org/saurondestroys/Rhovanion3.jpg

Gondor granted the Northerlings the lands beyond Dagorlad. I personally think this one is not true, as I will explain before.

Which "Kingdom" looks truest to the actual one?

Now, the Wainriders.

These next images are more a sort of clarification for me of what happened then a series of questions.

1. http://www.filespace.org/saurondestroys/Wainriders1.jpg

The Wainriders approached from the East, from both the north and south of the Sea of Rhun, and destroyed Rhovanion. From there they invaded Gondor and overran its eastern territories.

2. http://www.filespace.org/saurondestroys/Wainriders2.jpg

About 50 years later, Rhovanion revolts. The Wainriders invade Gondor but are defeated in Dagorlad. Gondor then expels the Wainriders. The Wainriders withdraw to the east and to northen Rhovanion.

Here is where I find the apparent Gondorian handover of southern Rhovanion of the northern tribes to be unlikely; I managed to briefly look over The Atlas of Middle Earth's entry on the Wainriders, and the Gondorian advance following the Wainrider defeat in Dagorlad is clearly shown as extending all the way to the Sea of Rhun, so that would imply that Gondor retook ALL of its former territories.

3. http://www.filespace.org/saurondestroys/Wainriders3.jpg

The Wainriders, Khand and Harad invade Gondor. The Wainriders storm through southern Rhovanion (assuming it is part of Gondor at this point), through Dagorlad, and through northen Ithilien. The Nazgul takes this oppurtunity to travel through Dagorlad into Mordor. The Harad and Khand are defeated in the south. The Gondor army then marches north and defeats the Wainriders at the Battle of the Camp.

4. http://www.filespace.org/saurondestroys/Wainriders4.jpg

Here is what I derived from the variety of sources that I read. The Wainriders then withdrew from Ithilien and Dagorlad. According to you, they kept both northern and southern Rhovanion. A subsequent revolt in either northen or southern Rhovanion then expelled the Wainriders completely, and they withdrew to the east. The Balchoth occupied northwest Rhovanion, at least until their defeat at the hands of the Rohirrim. Southern Rhovion remained unoccupied by Gondor and eventually the forces of Mordor began exerting control over it.

Is this an accurate enough assessment?

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Dark Lord Sauron
OK, I think my questions have been narrowed down to the Kingdom of Rhovanion and the Wainriders.

First, the Kingdom of Rhovanion. It was shaped in three possible ways:

If it were up to me, I would go with your first choice. But my opinion on the extent of Vidugavia's Kingdom of Rhovanion is not going to be any better informed or more valid than anyone else's.

Now, the Wainriders.

These next images are more a sort of clarification for me of what happened then a series of questions.

1. http://www.filespace.org/saurondestroys/Wainriders1.jpg

The Wainriders approached from the East, from both the north and south of the Sea of Rhun, and destroyed Rhovanion. From there they invaded Gondor and overran its eastern territories.

Your map doesn't show the Wainriders passing south around the Sea of Rhun. But I don't believe they DID pass that way. It appears to me (based on "Cirion and Eorl") that they came around the northern shores.

Here is where I find the apparent Gondorian handover of southern Rhovanion of the northern tribes to be unlikely; I managed to briefly look over The Atlas of Middle Earth's entry on the Wainriders, and the Gondorian advance following the Wainrider defeat in Dagorlad is clearly shown as extending all the way to the Sea of Rhun, so that would imply that Gondor retook ALL of its former territories.

Fonstad's maps are notoriously bad (and, that said, they are probably the best reference we have outside of the original Tolkien maps). Her routes of movement for the Wainriders are too broad and sweeping. Nor do they agree very well with the texts, except in a very general way.

The Wainriders, Khand and Harad invade Gondor. The Wainriders storm through southern Rhovanion (assuming it is part of Gondor at this point), through Dagorlad, and through northen Ithilien. The Nazgul takes this oppurtunity to travel through Dagorlad into Mordor. The Harad and Khand are defeated in the south. The Gondor army then marches north and defeats the Wainriders at the Battle of the Camp.

The Nazgul should already have been in Mordor. They should have entered it after the Great Plague of 1636.

Here is what I derived from the variety of sources that I read. The Wainriders then withdrew from Ithilien and Dagorlad. According to you, they kept both northern and southern Rhovanion. A subsequent revolt in either northen or southern Rhovanion then expelled the Wainriders completely, and they withdrew to the east. The Balchoth occupied northwest Rhovanion, at least until their defeat at the hands of the Rohirrim. Southern Rhovion remained unoccupied by Gondor and eventually the forces of Mordor began exerting control over it.

Everything by me on this point (that is, the expulsion of the Wainriders) is speculative and is based on the assumption that there is no real contradiction between the two passages Christopher singled out for comment on.

I would say, however, that the Wainriders were probably confined to Vidugavia's old lands, being too weak after their final defeat to really hold on to much else.

But that is also speculative.

[Dark Lord Sauron]

Well, thanks for the answers, I now have two more questions

The Beornings kept open the High Pass but the rest of the mountains were dangerous to cross.

I thought the Orcs captured Bilbo in the High Pass; wouldn't this suggest that this was Orkish territory?

Also, did Angmar control the northen Misty Mountains, specifically from their start to somewhere north of the High Pass?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Dark Lord Sauron
Well, thanks for the answers, I now have two more questions



I thought the Orcs captured Bilbo in the High Pass; wouldn't this suggest that this was Orkish territory?

Also, did Angmar control the northen Misty Mountains, specifically from their start to somewhere north of the High Pass?

MM may be out of action for a bit, so I'll try my hand:

1. Gandalf mentioned to Bilbo that he'd try to find a decent enough giant to plug up the one hole. Also, after the Battle of Five Armies, the Orcs in that area may have been depleted for a bit, enabling the Beornings to exert control of that area.

2. Sorry - your little buddy's ( ) kingdom of Angmar was knocked out of commission by Gondor's Finest... along with detachments from Lindon and Imladris (and likely smatterings of the remnants of Arthedain). It had been gone for over a thousand years by the time of "Lord of the Rings". You're likely right though that in its heyday, the northern passes of the Misty Mountains would have been under Angmar's control - as the kingdom straddled the northern portions of those mountains. And, once Rhudaur came under their sway, they could have easily held the mountains down to the High Pass itself - if not a bit further.

[Dark Lord Sauron]

I am quite capable of realizing that Angmar was destroyed by the murderous thieves of Gondor in 1975, thank you I am referring to it during its heyday.

When would you say the High Pass was first occupied by Orcs? Give a rough time period please.

And thanks for the quick response, I notice that these forums are somewhat slow

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Dark Lord Sauron
When would you say the High Pass was first occupied by Orcs? Give a rough time period please.

Seems to me that YOU would know more about that one... in an authoritative sense. But WE first learned about it in a big way one night in 2941, Third Age.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Michael Martinez
:
:
The Northmen were devastated by the Great Plague in 1635 (that is the correct year according to "Cirion and Eorl" in Unfinished Tales, so the plagued was transmitted to Gondor by the Northmen the next year). The Plague came during winter and affected both men and horses. It sounds very much like a respiratory illness or flu, rather than something like Bubonic Plague.
:
:

Interesting to me (when I stop to think about it) that the Plague also killed the White Tree of Minas Anor.

[Dark Lord Sauron]

Always, ALWAYS more questions

Thranduil's realm I have always believed was everything north of the Old Forest Road in Mirkwood. Would this be accurate or not?

Also, where did the Beornings originate from? Just the Woodmen to the south?

The next three questions concern Karen Fonstad's Atlas of Middle Earth. Taking into account Mr. Martinez's lovely little assessment of the book, some clarification is being sought.

First, Harondor. The Ship-King Falastur is recorded to have conquered that area, later South Gondor, in 830. Just who did he wrestle it from though; the Black Numenorians inhabiting Umbar, or the Harad? Tolkien didn't say which in the appendicies of the LOTR books, as far as I looked.

Next, Gondor at its birth. Mr. Martinez stated that Gondor was composed originally or Calenardhon, Ithilien, Belfalas, Lebennin, and Anorien. However, the Atlas of Middle Earth portrays infant Gondor as also occupying both Lamedon and Lossarnach. Lamedon may not have been a fief so much as a region, but Lossarnach definately was a fief. Could clarification be provided here?

Finally, the Kingdom of Gil-Gilad. In the Simarillion (sp?), the High Kings almost never controlled the lands of the other Noldor realms, and the rulers there were kings of their own right. If this same tradition is to be applied to Gil-Gilad, would he have actually had control over Imladris as Fonstad portrays? Or would Imladris be pretty much able to do as it pleased?

Oh, and while I'm asking more questions, I'll think I'll ask some MORE questions:

What was the relationship of Gil-Galad and Elendil? Arnor lays smack in the middle of Gil-Galad's "area of influence", so did he just grant them the land?

What was the relationship between Dwarf kingdoms and the main states there? I mean, Dwarves just "settled" in the middle of Lindon and formed their own state in 2802; wouldn't the Elves of Lindon have a slight problem with that? This state survived, as a tributary of Erebor, right?

And what of the Glittering Caves and Rohan? Gimli just founds a colony in the middle of territorily claimed land. Was this area independent of Rohan or did the Gimli acknowledge the overlordship of the King of the Mark?

Finally, I'm rather doubting that Nogrod survived into the Third Age, I haven't seen anything to say it did. Any sources that say so?

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Dark Lord Sauron

Well, thanks for the answers, I now have two more questions

I thought the Orcs captured Bilbo in the High Pass; wouldn't this suggest that this was Orkish territory?

After Beorn became a chieftain of many men, they seized control over the High Pass (this is implied by Gloin's conversation with Frodo, in which the reader is provided a brief history of events east of the Mountains).

Also, did Angmar control the northen Misty Mountains, specifically from their start to somewhere north of the High Pass?

Yes. According to the Appendix, Angmar lay on both sides of the mountains. The Eotheod drove off the remnants of Angmar's eastern peoples when they settled in that region several years after the final defeat of Angmar.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Dark Lord Sauron

Always, ALWAYS more questions

Thranduil's realm I have always believed was everything north of the Old Forest Road in Mirkwood. Would this be accurate or not?

No. There were Men living in the northeastern eaves of the forest, so apparently Thranduil's realm did not extend that far. Also, the Elves don't seem to have controlled any land very far south of their path.

Also, where did the Beornings originate from? Just the Woodmen to the south?

The Beornings were probably descendants of Edainic men who lived throughout the Vales of Anduin from the First Age onward. When Gandalf tells Bilbo and the Dwarves a little about Beorn's personal history, he indicates that Beorn had been driven from the mountains. We know that there were woodmen living west of Anduin in the foothills of the Misty Mountains (because the Orcs and Wargs were raiding their villages). These men were probably closely related to Beorn's people. They are not the same Woodmen who lived in Mirkwood, but were close relatives.

The next three questions concern Karen Fonstad's Atlas of Middle Earth. Taking into account Mr. Martinez's lovely little assessment of the book, some clarification is being sought.

First, Harondor. The Ship-King Falastur is recorded to have conquered that area, later South Gondor, in 830. Just who did he wrestle it from though; the Black Numenorians inhabiting Umbar, or the Harad? Tolkien didn't say which in the appendicies of the LOTR books, as far as I looked.

Tolkien doesn't stipulate who lived in those lands. However, "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" says that two of the Kings Men were lords in that region. So, my opinion/guess is that those lands were inhabited by a mixture of Numenoreans and Haradrim. There was no single people with the name "Haradrim" -- that name is just a generic term for all the peoples who lived to the south of Gondor.

Next, Gondor at its birth. Mr. Martinez stated that Gondor was composed originally or Calenardhon, Ithilien, Belfalas, Lebennin, and Anorien. However, the Atlas of Middle Earth portrays infant Gondor as also occupying both Lamedon and Lossarnach. Lamedon may not have been a fief so much as a region, but Lossarnach definately was a fief. Could clarification be provided here?

I doubt Lamedon was part of early Gondor. Lossarnach may have been. It's difficult to be sure of whether the named regions all share parity or whether some of them are sub-portions of larger named regions.

Finally, the Kingdom of Gil-Gilad. In the Simarillion (sp?), the High Kings almost never controlled the lands of the other Noldor realms, and the rulers there were kings of their own right. If this same tradition is to be applied to Gil-Gilad, would he have actually had control over Imladris as Fonstad portrays? Or would Imladris be pretty much able to do as it pleased?

Imladris was established by Gil-galad himself as an outpost of his power. He appointed Elrond as his vice-regent in Eriador.

Oh, and while I'm asking more questions, I'll think I'll ask some MORE questions:

What was the relationship of Gil-Galad and Elendil? Arnor lays smack in the middle of Gil-Galad's "area of influence", so did he just grant them the land?

They would have been very distant cousins, but their political relationship is not stipulated. My inference is that Gil-galad ceded all lands where the Eldar did not dwell (and where the Dunedain and other Men willing to accept Elendil's rule did dwell) to Elendil.

What was the relationship between Dwarf kingdoms and the main states there? I mean, Dwarves just "settled" in the middle of Lindon and formed their own state in 2802; wouldn't the Elves of Lindon have a slight problem with that? This state survived, as a tributary of Erebor, right?

The Elves apparently never claimed suzereinty over the actual mountains.

And what of the Glittering Caves and Rohan? Gimli just founds a colony in the middle of territorily claimed land. Was this area independent of Rohan or did the Gimli acknowledge the overlordship of the King of the Mark?

Gimli's colony would have been established with Eomer's help and permission. I don't think the Rohirrim would have turned down the kind of help Gimli's people could offer them. But whether Gimli had to acknowledge Eomer as king is not clear. Legolas, apparently, did acknowledge Aragorn as king. So, maybe Gimli accepted Eomer as his king.

Finally, I'm rather doubting that Nogrod survived into the Third Age, I haven't seen anything to say it did. Any sources that say so?

No published sources indicate that it survived.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

No published sources indicate that it survived.

Someone recently suggested to me that something Tolkien wrote might actually indicate that Nogrod did survive, although in diminished form (obviously) to the Third Age.

However, I cannot think of the reference or where that discussion was.