|
FAQ | Members List | Calendar |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
06-25-2004, 01:47 AM | #21 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 516
|
I don't believe that pro-choice means pro-abortion. In my opinion, I've always thought it meant the freedom to choose whether or not to have an abortion.
|
06-25-2004, 02:20 AM | #22 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
It's the INTENT that's important. In the same way, yes, there may not always be a fertilized egg, but one of the INTENTS of the drug is to CAUSE an abortion of a fertilized and implanted egg, IF that situation happens to be present.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 06-25-2004 at 02:24 AM. |
|
06-25-2004, 07:00 AM | #23 | ||
Possessive Villain Fancier
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: On my ship, riding the waves YARR!
Posts: 2,008
|
I bet the person who wrote that list of terms doesn’t feel so strongly about killing all things, and things that I believe are more alive than any group of cells at a week old. For example, I bet they are quite happy to eat fish, and don’t go around saying you can’t say ‘fishing’, you have to say ‘snatching living creatures in a net and leaving them on a boat deck to almost suffocate before bludgeoning them to death.’ These people aren’t pro-life. They’re pro-human life, because somewhere along the way people came up with this idea that they have more right to life than anything else.
Quote:
If you (not you particularly R*an )are anti-abortion then what do you suggest people do? Just have the baby and then resent it, or give it away, or give it a sub-standard life because you can’t afford it? Because according to the list kindly posted by Mercutio giving a baby away is “calloused.” Quote:
__________________
My soul is painted like the wings of butterflies, Fairytales of yesterday will grow but never die, I can fly - my friends. XK |
||
06-25-2004, 07:21 AM | #24 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
Elfmaster, on Merc's list, I believe they're saying to avoid using the terms on the right - and to instead use the terms on the left - if you're pro-life. So to say that 'giving up the baby' sounds calloused is saying that the terminology makes adoption sound like a bad idea. Pro-lifers are strong proponents of adoption - esp as an alternative to abortion. There have historically been long waiting lists for adoptions in recent years.
If you want, you can think of the side as 'pro-human-life' - but it gets kind of wordy. And I don't see anything to be ashamed of in the term, if you meant it that way. One does not need to be a strict vegetarian and animal-rights activist in order to perceive humanity as a higher creature than the animals... and to care more about preserving each human life than each animal life. Besides... we're talking about our own kind, aren't we?
__________________
My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
06-25-2004, 07:39 AM | #25 | |
The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: here and there
Posts: 4,671
|
Quote:
|
|
06-25-2004, 07:56 AM | #26 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
I have been restraining myself greatly, because this is an issue I'm quite passionate about - for the underlying philosophy, for the methods used and for the sheer volume of numbers involved. Still I'll refrain a bit from all that.
I WOULD like to ask you who are pro-choice some questions though. First, when do YOU believe life begins? Specifically, at what point is a developing human baby considered a 'life' due legal protection on its own? Is it at conception? How about when there's a beating heart? A brain? Discernable fingers and toes? Eyes, ears and nose? All those things happen remarkably early in the formation process... even before a mother knows she's expecting, in many cases. Or... when a forming child could appear to feel pain? (fetal pain having recently been ruled 'irrelevant' by a judge in striking down a law banning partial-delivery abortion) When the child could survive on its own? When it can be kept alive if born? (that latter happens earlier and earlier!) Second, what forms your opinion on the subject? Is it true conviction, having studied fetal development (even if only to crack open a book and observe the weekly progress and put your finger down and say "here!")? Or is it just a point that's convenient for your belief in allowing abortions to whatever point? And... what if you're wrong? It seems to me that we're doing what we do on the assumption that this is not yet a life, therefore it's OK! It's just interesting to me that as medical science has been able to show us more and more just how much of a life a pre-born baby is at an earlier point, the legal system keeps pushing back the status of 'human life' to a later point. Now - a *shocker*... I am pro-choice! I just happen to think that when there's a baby involved (pre-born included), the choice has already been made! Oh - you'll talk about rape, etc - but I believe that's a small percentage of the total. If I gave you the abortions by exception, would you give me back the ones which are essentially after-the-fact birth control? Oh - and the reasons for which we justify abortions: financial difficulties, 'unwanted', disabilities, their life 'would not be worth living' (how high and mighty of us to decide!), even convenience... we don't kill other people for reasons like that. What we're really talking about, by and large, in our society is the 'choice' or the 'right' to act irresponsibly and then try to dodge the natural consequences of our actions. But that never works anyway... we only take on different consequences (whether we know it or not). Now - I've focused on the issue of abortion, so back to the 'word choice' issue. I don't understand how you on the pro-choice side of the argument can presume to give ANY label to those on the pro-life side. We don't control how you frame YOURselves on the issue. It sounds to me like this: Suppose you're on a Debate Team. You have a certain side of an issue to defend in a debate contest. Just before it begins, a judge brings you two lists of words and tells you that you may NOT use the words from List A but that you MUST use the words from List B instead. You review the lists and quickly preceive that this will hurt your cause... for both lists contain emotionally charged words - but List A has all the words which you would consider beneficial to your case while List B has all the words which you would consider harmful to your case. So you ask the judge, "Who prepared this list?" and the judge replies with a smile, "Why, your upcoming opponent, right over there". That's how we conservatives perceive wording currently in use in mainstream media in America today.
__________________
My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! Last edited by Valandil : 06-25-2004 at 07:58 AM. |
06-25-2004, 08:20 AM | #27 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Reality
Posts: 5,340
|
Both sides are guilty of trying to influence opinions through word use. That is what people do with language! So choose your words carefully (if you care) and make your thoughts crystal clear. Much of what is "said" about hot topics is simply cheerleading....people (on either side) "preaching to the choir" for affirmation and magnification, so 85% of it goes in one ear and out the other, for me.
I see the term "pro choice" as the desire to keep emphasis on the woman having control (choice) over what goes on in her own body. (I choose to take immediate control/ responsibility of my body at a much earlier date, by practicing birth control, thus avoiding the whole horrible issue Added: If I found myself pregnant in spite of my very serious efforts to avoid it, I would grow and have the new person, I couldn't do an abortion, it would just haunt me and ruin the quality of my life ) The term "Pro life" would be clearer (in this issue) if it was "pro embryonic life"....or something That shifts thought to "how do you define life" which seems to be what the debate is more about... Of the two terms, I find pro life to be a bit more confusing. Let's look at the opposites...pro life's is "pro death" and I don't think that is the issue for the abortion side, since they don't veiw zygotes etc as "life" yet. The opposite of choice...no choice....well? Last edited by Lizra : 06-25-2004 at 09:42 AM. |
06-25-2004, 09:03 AM | #28 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
Quote:
If you stand by it, on what do you base that position?
__________________
My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
|
06-25-2004, 10:25 AM | #29 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
I guess this is now just about terms used to describe abortion. I thought we had an abortion thread.
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
06-25-2004, 10:53 AM | #30 | |
Rohirrim Warrior
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 590
|
Quote:
Last edited by Ragnarok : 06-25-2004 at 10:58 AM. |
|
06-25-2004, 10:57 AM | #31 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
Thjat just seemed very typical though of an attack thread, I agree with Valadil as I said. It wasn't a discussion thread.
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 06-25-2004 at 10:59 AM. |
|
06-25-2004, 11:06 AM | #32 |
mystical divinity of Unashamed Felinity
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: New York's beautiful North Coast -- we're all mad here!!!
Posts: 635
|
My two cents, for what they are worth:
I have no problem whatsoever using the terms "pro-life" and "pro-choice" to describe advocates of both sides of the issue. I think both are less biasing descriptions of the positions of each side. Like JD, I find myself more on a middle ground with this issue, though I consider myself more "pro-choice" for a number of personal reasons. I feel that abortion should remain safe and legal. Why? Because it will happen anyway, regardless of whether it is legal or not. It has happened for centuries and will continue. Why should women who make the decision that they don't want to be pregnant (for whatever reason) have to face unsafe conditions and procedures to end the pregnancy? When I was in high-school, abortion was still illegal in most states, including Michigan, where I lived then. One day in class, a girl I didn't know well started to talk to me. She was a little bit of a "wild" child and often talked about parties and crazy things she would do. It was not the life I led, and she knew that. I think she liked to talk to me because I was so different from the rest of her friends. And I liked her because I sensed that she was really a very nice person who didn't have a support network at home. Anyway, she told me about a friend of hers who was pregnant and wanted an abortion and wanted her to go with her to the abortionists "office" so she didn't have to go alone. The account of this visit was hair-raising, and forever changed my view on the subject. The girl nearly died and my friend was terrified. There will always be mis-directed people like this who will choose to have an abortion because they don't have a support system at home and have not had the system of values taught to them that many of us have had. We cannot force our values on those who don't share them. That can lead to resentment. I think that there are also certain circumstances in which abortion is acceptable. Certainly if the mother's life is in danger if a pregnancy is carried to term. Also, in cases of rape or incest, even though these cases are rare, the option should be available. I also think that there should be a point in a pregnancy where abortion is no longer an option, as in the last trimester. And what is better -- abortion in the early stages of pregnancy, or a woman wrapping her newborn in a plastic bag and placing it in a dumpster? Abortion is not a choice I would make myself because I was brought up with strong values and in a loving and supportive family. I would not have had to make the decision. But others not as fortunate do have to face this decision. I don't think it is a choice made lightly by anyone facing it and I know there are some who make it that are plagued by it throughout their lives. In the early part of the 20th century many people were living in poverty-level conditions. Birth control was unknown and families were large. Diseases that are virtually unknown now claimed the lives of many, but many families still had eight or ten children and no money to feed or clothe them. Unwanted pregnancies were often terminated by deadly means. Abortion is nothing new. One of the things I find hardest to understand about some pro-life advocates (I understand that not all pro-lifers feel this way) is that they are also opposed to birth control and sex education. If they want to keep people from having abortions, shouldn't it follow that they should also want to keep the pregnancy rate down? Abstinance is all good and well in an environment where a strong system of values and morality exsist, but what about where those ideals are not taught, supported or advocated? Who bears the burden of unwanted children? Adoption? Not every mother can make that decision or wants to. Should these children be raised by a parent who is unprepared to care for them and resentful that their lives were forever altered by the arrival of a child they didn't want? Not all children are adoptable, unfortunately. Should we advocate the resurgence of orphanages to accomodate unwanted, unadoptable children? I don't advocate abortion as a means of birth control. That is utterly ridiculous. There are so many other options available in this day and age. I don't have the answers to these questions, and I suspect no one really does. That's why I think that: 1. Sex education is vital. 2. Birth control should be discussed as part of sex education, and that it should be available to those who need it (this is another topic of discussion, I know...) 3. Abortion should remain safe and legal. This is probably more than two cents worth, but that's what I have to say about it.
__________________
"Never try to out-stubborn a cat!" -- R. Heinlein ~~~~~~~~~ "But I don't want to be among mad people, " Alice remarked. "Oh, but you can't help that," said the Cat; "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here." ~~ Lewis Carroll ~~~~~~~~~~~ Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana... |
06-25-2004, 11:07 AM | #33 | |
Rohirrim Warrior
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 590
|
Quote:
|
|
06-25-2004, 11:37 AM | #34 | ||
The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: here and there
Posts: 4,671
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
06-25-2004, 11:38 AM | #35 | |
The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: here and there
Posts: 4,671
|
Quote:
|
|
06-25-2004, 11:46 AM | #36 | |
Spammer of the Happy Thread
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 3,512
|
Quote:
__________________
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. " - C. Sagan My (photography) website My Flickr page |
|
06-25-2004, 12:10 PM | #37 |
Rohirrim Warrior
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 590
|
Anyways, back on topic.. I am against abortion because I don't believe women have the right to kill a life.
|
06-25-2004, 12:34 PM | #38 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
Oh and by the way - I don't get defensive about the littlest things. It has been building up and it is the combination and unrelenting attacks and anti-Americanism that has been getting out of hand that has pissed me off. Maybe you consider it a "little" thing - but an avalance is made up of individual little snow flakes.
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
06-25-2004, 12:35 PM | #39 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
As the thread-starter, I just wanted to clarify that this thread is NOT specifically about abortion; it's mainly about the "power of words" used in things like the abortion debate and other controversial topics.
That said, I don't mind some comments about opinions on abortion, because it influences choice of words, but I didn't want this thread to be solely about people's opinions on abortion.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-25-2004, 12:40 PM | #40 |
Spammer of the Happy Thread
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 3,512
|
You made things clear, R*an!
__________________
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. " - C. Sagan My (photography) website My Flickr page |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Abortion. | PippinTook | General Messages | 1004 | 06-18-2008 06:14 PM |
punishment thread - aka chalkboard thread | jerseydevil | General Messages | 0 | 03-06-2004 09:24 AM |
magic and power | afro-elf | Middle Earth | 9 | 10-08-2001 09:52 PM |
Women | anduin | Entmoot Archive | 190 | 10-02-2000 11:15 PM |