06-01-2004, 12:03 PM | #21 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Over 400,000 American soldiers died during World War II - becasuse of Germany and Japan. It's even a higher number if you add in the deaths of American soldiers because of Germany in World War I. They will forgive us - because it wasn't America who did it - it was a few Americans. As time goes on - they will see this - once there is security in their country and so forth.
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06-01-2004, 12:52 PM | #22 | |
Elven Warrior
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As for Germany, the Nazi regime was humanity's worst episode- a stain on the pages of history, I am sure you will agree that America cannot be compared to them. I am not sure that it was 'a few Americans'. What is truly frightening is that more and more pictures of Americans abusing Iraqis just keep on coming. They seem infinite. And what terrifes me to the bone is how jovial they look. Nowadays it seems every common enlisted soldier is possessed of a digital camera and these pictures fly back and forth until some horrified journalist is informed of them. I do not, of course, blame the Ameican nation. I blame what the American nation has been fed, a systematic dogma of her own moral supremacy. 'Anything goes' because, after all, the Iraqis aren't real soldiers, are they, Jerseydevil?
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06-01-2004, 12:56 PM | #23 | |
mystical divinity of Unashamed Felinity
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"Never try to out-stubborn a cat!" -- R. Heinlein ~~~~~~~~~ "But I don't want to be among mad people, " Alice remarked. "Oh, but you can't help that," said the Cat; "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here." ~~ Lewis Carroll ~~~~~~~~~~~ Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana... |
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06-01-2004, 01:04 PM | #24 | |
Elven Warrior
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Well thats wrong. Firstly, you did not rebuild their countries out of the goodness of your hearts, and you bloody well know it. It was to have two strong allies against the communists during the cold war. And whos this "we"? The soldiers who were abused by Germany and Japan, and the civilians, (the actual people), do not, ever forgive. They hate their foes until they die. The nation can forgive, over time, but not the people. And the iraqi people aint ever gonna forgive you. People in that region have very, VERY, long memories when it comes to past abuses.
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06-01-2004, 01:22 PM | #25 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Sadly, it's hard for me to envision much 'forgiveness'. We bungled that... and it's important that we handle future issues better than we did that one. Each additional major gaffe we make becomes magnified in the rhetoric of those who oppose us... so we can't slip up. We can't give them the political ammunition they make such good use of.
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06-01-2004, 01:43 PM | #26 |
Elven Warrior
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As for forgiveness of a nation for things that are done by individuals from a specific nation, possible. Forgiveness to the individuals who commit the acts, unlikely. But even people that have crimes committed against them sometimes choose to forgive instead of carrying the burden of bitterness, and resentment around for the rest of thier lives. Forgiving is one thing, but forgetting is nearly impossible.
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06-01-2004, 02:33 PM | #27 |
Elf Lord
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I think that the Iraqis will forgive USA, but not right now, and maybe even not next year. But more 5 years or so, if they would still be democratic, I think the US will be remembered as the one who brought freedom, and not as the one who tortured Iraqis.
If we forgive the Germans about WWII, they should forgive USA about the tortures. Edit - Can you (all) please stop using 'Middle East' as if only Muslims lived there? Hmmm... I wouldn't mind, if I hadn't lived there... (here, in Middle East). Thanks. (Example - They will not diferentiate between a group of individuals and an entire nation because they will stereotype all Americans into subscribing to one philosophy, as many Americans do when discussing the people of the Middle East.") Last edited by Radagast The Brown : 06-01-2004 at 02:41 PM. |
06-01-2004, 02:52 PM | #28 |
mystical divinity of Unashamed Felinity
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Mea culpa, RtB!
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"Never try to out-stubborn a cat!" -- R. Heinlein ~~~~~~~~~ "But I don't want to be among mad people, " Alice remarked. "Oh, but you can't help that," said the Cat; "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here." ~~ Lewis Carroll ~~~~~~~~~~~ Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana... |
06-01-2004, 03:18 PM | #29 | |
Elf Lord
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06-01-2004, 04:11 PM | #30 |
Elf Lord
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IMO, forgiveness would depend on what is being forgiven.
If I understand it correctly, Arab resentment against America in particular, and the West in general, is based around the Palestinian situation. A free, viable, independent Palestine would be the answer to that one. |
06-01-2004, 04:33 PM | #31 | |
Elf Lord
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Besides, now, when Sharon wants to get out of Gaza Strip, the Palestinians don't want us to go from some reason. Sharon can't get out of Gaza anyway, because the most of the coalition he made is against this action. Second - the hate to the Western World is not only about the Palestinian country. The leaders of the Arabic world see the Western culture as a danger to their religion. I don't think the hate will disappear when (if?) Palestine independent country will be made. |
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06-01-2004, 04:51 PM | #32 |
Elf Lord
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Agree with you there; I never said it would be easy. I'd also stand by Israel's right to exist.
HOWEVER I think this "clash of cultures" thing is overplayed. Arabs are people like everyone else. Yes, the fundamentalists equate the West with materialism, and see it as the degenerate antithesis of a spiritual endeavour. Conversely, those who perceive themselves to be materially deprived (e.g. Saudi Arabia is rolling in oil money, yet has massive unemployment) can feel attracted to an extreme (political/spiritualist) movement. |
06-01-2004, 05:32 PM | #33 | |||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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06-01-2004, 05:38 PM | #34 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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06-01-2004, 06:50 PM | #35 |
Spammer of the Happy Thread
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Whoa! 4+1 -smileys in two posts!
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06-01-2004, 07:50 PM | #36 |
the Shrike
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Yeah, it'd be interesting to do an analysis on the distribution of "" smilies in his posts, and how they correlate with political versus non-political threads...
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06-01-2004, 09:00 PM | #37 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I just think what they were saying was completely moronic. of course you are the queen of the rolleyes - I learned it from you. Go look at the past threads from two years ago - and check if you can't remember.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 06-01-2004 at 09:02 PM. |
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06-01-2004, 10:01 PM | #38 | ||
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- "Personal Justice Denied: Report of the Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians" ~ http://www.children-of-the-camps.org/history/index.html |
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06-01-2004, 10:57 PM | #39 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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06-02-2004, 01:00 AM | #40 | |||
Elven Warrior
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What I said was that 'nations' can forgive over time. It could take hundreds of years. Israel vs Palastine = Isralites vs Philistines? These people hate their enemies forever, and I dont see how you think that abusing their people in captivity will warrant their forgiveness. (oh yes, I can hit the button as well.)
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