Why Legolas?

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Ithildin55
2. Legolas, as the King’s son, aptly represented the Elves of Thranduil’s realm who had, however inadvertently, allowed Gollum to escape; a situation that could have significantly endangered the success of Frodo’s mission. Legolas may also have born personal responsibility in the chain of events that led to Gollum’s escape.

I had forgotten about Gollum's escape. In that light Elrond may have added Legolas to the fellowship as a sort of letting him redeem the Mirkwood-elves for letting Gollum escape.

Or perhaps something a little more politically tinted like: "Okay, so you Mirkwood-elves let Gollum escape but we'll still trust you, see? We're sending your prince on a mission of great importance."

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Eärniel
I had forgotten about Gollum's escape. In that light Elrond may have added Legolas to the fellowship as a sort of letting him redeem the Mirkwood-elves for letting Gollum escape.

In the light of events, which happened in the Moria and after, I would say that Gollum escape was intentional and planned ahead and it was nothing to redeem, because an order, probably, was given by Elrond himself or Gandalf.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Olmer
In the light of events, which happened in the Moria and after, I would say that Gollum escape was intentional and planned ahead and it was nothing to redeem, because order, probably, was given by Elrond himself or Gandalf.

Which order? "Release the orcs!"???

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Valandil
Which order? "Release the orcs!"???

Orcs are heresay.
They simply let him out of of corral on a signal shot and whistled afteward to make him run faster.
I told already (in previous discussions) that devision of the Fellowship was inevitable, and Gandalf, as a good chessplayer , thought on many moves ahead.
Golum was needed for protection Frodo and the Ring. And he even been told where he has to wait for company's arrival.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Olmer
Orcs are heresay.
They simply let him out of of corral on a signal shot and whistled afteward to make him run faster.
I told already (in previous discussions) that devision of the Fellowship was inevitable, and Gandalf, as a good chessplayer , thought on many moves ahead.
Golum was needed for protection Frodo and the Ring. And he even been told where he has to wait for company's arrival.

So those of the fellowship you have 'in the know' are at least Gandalf, Aragorn and Legolas. Were Boromir, Gimli and the four hobbits the only ones whose benefit this whole charade was for? Was the attempt to cross the Redhorn Pass a sham?

Sounds like a flimsy argument about Gollum being released intentionally and told where to 'meet up with them'.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

FYI, the question about Silvan elves traveling West was prompted by a discusssion elsewhere (I forget where or by who, short term memory goes first) which argued that the Mirkwood elves had lost their chance to go to Valinor since they were "refuseniks" before the First Age. I found the argument interesting, but not especially compelling.

And as for Legolas, was his mother a Sindarin elf (like Thranduil) or of other lineage? It is interesting that Thranduil's elves lived in northern Mirkwood, about as far away from the sea as they could get, perhaps to subconsciously keep the "sea longing" that got to Legolas at bay.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Valandil
So those of the fellowship you have 'in the know' are at least Gandalf, Aragorn and Legolas.
Was the attempt to cross the Redhorn Pass a sham?

Sounds like a flimsy argument about Gollum being released intentionally and told where to 'meet up with them'.

Gandalf was the Grand Orchestrator.
Aragorn and Legolas knew as much, as they was allowed to know.
Now, let think this way.
Gandalf knew that to filter in the heart of Mordor would be possible only by small and quick hobbits. This why instead of two , say, Elvish warriors, the two additional hobbits was included in group.
But the hobbits, even as braveas they are and masterful in throving stones, not the match to weapons wielding, experirnced in combat orcs.
It means that hobbits , being on unfamiliar territory, could easily get into one of Sauron's traps.
And Gandalf "stitch" Gollum to Frodo. His familiarity with surrounding and natural cunningness will help Frodo to prevent unexpected and undesirable encounters with orcs.
But what is more important - Gollum is an additional protection for the Ring. He will not allow his "precious" return to Sauron. While it's at hobbit's hands he has a HOPE, but Sauron and Hope are not linking together in any way. Gollum will defend the ring from orcs with all might he has.
So , Gollum was a crusial addition to the group.
Now let ask the question: where Gollum started to trail behind the group? In Moria.
But why "escaped" Gollum, driven by sole obsession, went to look for the ring in quite opposite direction? Why this little pitiful maniac patiently sits in darkness and waits? Whence he has learned that it nesessary to wait here?
He was put there by the one , who knew the route.
And who is he, who INSISTED on going into Moria right from the beginning? There is a way that we may attempt... I thought FROM THE BEGINNING, when first I considered this journey.FOTR, book II, chpt. IV
This misterious manipulator can be nobody else, but our wise Gandalf.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Olmer
Gandalf was the Grand Orchestrator.
Aragorn and Legolas knew as much, as they was allowed to know.
Now, let think this way.
Gandalf knew that to filter in the heart of Mordor would be possible only by small and quick hobbits. This why instead of two , say, Elvish warriors, the two additional hobbits was included in group.
But the hobbits, even as braveas they are and masterful in throving stones, not the match to weapons wielding, experirnced in combat orcs.
It means that hobbits , being on unfamiliar territory, could easily get into one of Sauron's traps.
And Gandalf "stitch" Gollum to Frodo. His familiarity with surrounding and natural cunningness will help Frodo to prevent unexpected and undesirable encounters with orcs.
But what is more important - Gollum is an additional protection for the Ring. He will not allow his "precious" return to Sauron. While it's at hobbit's hands he has a HOPE, but Sauron and Hope are not linking together in any way. Gollum will defend the ring from orcs with all might he has.
So , Gollum was a crusial addition to the group.
Now let ask the question: where Gollum started to trail behind the group? In Moria.

How did Gandalf know Gollum wouldn't take the Ring himself? Could he expect what happened, that the hobbits will overcome Gollum and keep him alive, 'tame' him? How did Gandalf could know Shelob wouyldn't kill Sam and Frodo, and that Sam would somehow defeat her?
I don't think it was a well planned, if you're right - and that only luck (or Iluvatar?) helped Gandalf's plan to succeed.
I personally think Gandalf didn't think about it, and couldn't expect what happened.

But why "escaped" Gollum, driven by sole obsession, went to look for the ring in quite opposite direction? Why this little pitiful maniac patiently sits in darkness and waits? Whence he has learned that it nesessary to wait here?
He was put there by the one , who knew the route.
And who is he, who INSISTED on going into Moria right from the beginning? There is a way that we may attempt... I thought FROM THE BEGINNING, when first I considered this journey.FOTR, book II, chpt. IV
This misterious manipulator can be nobody else, but our wise Gandalf.

But then, how did Gandalf could take Gollum? He was in the hands of the orcs - or free. He might've got orders from the orcs, orders from Mordor.

[Ithildin55]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
FYI, the question about Silvan elves traveling West was prompted by a discusssion elsewhere (I forget where or by who, short term memory goes first) which argued that the Mirkwood elves had lost their chance to go to Valinor since they were "refuseniks" before the First Age. I found the argument interesting, but not especially compelling.

And as for Legolas, was his mother a Sindarin elf (like Thranduil) or of other lineage? It is interesting that Thranduil's elves lived in northern Mirkwood, about as far away from the sea as they could get, perhaps to subconsciously keep the "sea longing" that got to Legolas at bay.

To sail – or not to sail… That is the question…

“Refuseniks” lol! Well, you are right; following the defeat of Mrogoth, “Then Eönwë as herald of the Eldar King summoned the Elves of Beleriand to depart from Middle-earth.” (Of the Voyage of Eärendil, The Silmarillion,) So, all Elves had the right to go if they wanted to.

But I believe their initial choice continued to color their outlook to the point that there were probably very few Avari who chose to reverse that original decision. Perhaps the Elves somehow ‘inherited’ the predilection to a particular choice?

I also tend to think the earlier in the Great Journey a kindred of Elves turned back, the less likely their people were to develop the desire to sail West. And maybe living far from the Sea for long periods of time may have bound them so strongly to the land that they found it difficult or impossible to leave ME?

All Elves still had free-will, of course, and any individual could choose for him or her self, but I think their inherited/cultural tendency and degree of attachment to the land would be major influences.
________________

Tolkien left no clues as to the identity or heritage of Legolas’ mother.

According to UT, Thranduil’s father, Oropher originally founded their kingdom in southern Greenwood and over the ages the Elves gradually migrated northwards to avoid ‘undesirable’ influences. Depending upon which account in UT you read, that could be Galadriel and Celeborn, the Dwarves of Moria, and/or the baddies at Dol Guldur.

But, yes, the Vale of Anduin was a long way from Lindon and the Sea and I think that the Sindarin adventurers that settled there among the Wood-elves had no intention of ever crossing into the West. I expect they thought they were relatively “safe” from the sea-longing there and that it was probably a bitter blow to Thranduil when Legolas decided to sail.

Ithildin55 *(

BTW:
Michael Martinez’s post describes much of what can be known about the Avari in Entmoot’s The Silmarillion forum: Avari Thread

[LutraMage]

Perhaps the answer is simply in line with the hobbits as the choice for Ringbearer. The whole story hinges on the fact that the hobbits were the most unlikely of species to arise and deal with the Ring. In the same way, the Silvan Elves were the most unlikely of the elven peoples to be part of the Fellowship. Perhaps Elrond realised that the Fellowship he was choosing ought to be different and less predictable - people who might be expected to do the unexpected?

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Olmer
In the light of events, which happened in the Moria and after, I would say that Gollum escape was intentional and planned ahead and it was nothing to redeem, because an order, probably, was given by Elrond himself or Gandalf.

Eh?

*^the only intelligent comment she knows how to make right now*

Are you saying Gandalf or Elrond gave order to release Gollum? Meaning that the Elven guards were killed on purpose and the whole Council led astray by either the wizard or the Elf lord?

You know, Olmer, the trouble with you is that I never know whether you're serious or pulling my leg...

[Ithildin55]

Originally posted by LutraMage
Perhaps the answer is simply in line with the hobbits as the choice for Ringbearer. The whole story hinges on the fact that the hobbits were the most unlikely of species to arise and deal with the Ring. In the same way, the Silvan Elves were the most unlikely of the elven peoples to be part of the Fellowship. Perhaps Elrond realised that the Fellowship he was choosing ought to be different and less predictable - people who might be expected to do the unexpected?

Good point Lutra, I believe that was indeed a part of it, though not so much a part of Elrond’s reasoning as Ilúvatar’s plan in selecting and drawing them there to be chosen. The whole story seems to be about the small, unlikely, unexpected folk doing the great deeds and saving the world right under the big, evil, awesomely powerful bad guys’ noses. The races they represented were in most cases folk that were looked down upon in some way: Though several members of the Fellowship had high lineages within their own people, they were not chosen because of their station, nor did they flaunt their station along the way.

Ithildin55 *(

[Durin1]

This mind sound like a crazy idea but...

What if Legolas purely and simply put himself forward to go?

Don't forget that the fellowship was initially only created to help the ring bearer make a start on the journey. It would have been convenient for Legolas to travel with the company over the Misty Mountains (from the original route) whereby he could have accessed Mirkwood quite easily. It was only the strength of the fellowship that decided each and everyone one of the companys' (excluding Boromir whose plan it was from the outset to go back to Gondor) decision that they wouldn't abandon Frodo.

[Elvellon]

Originally posted by azalea


Also, maybe the Green elves had more at stake -- they weren't leaving like the others, were they?

Yes, my thoughts exactly, it is interesting to notice that, as the Third Age ended, the Noldor left, and presumably the Sindar dwindled also, but, as Tolkien says, the Silvan remained in their woods. This may be a possible reason; the Fellowship were of made of those that still had a vested interest in the future.

[Valandil]

Oops!

Major re-adjustment to the thinking in this thread. I just saw in one of the appendices that Thrainduil was one of the Sindarin Elves who went East to found a kingdom among the Silvan Elves. Therefore Thrainduil, at least, was Sindarin... and Legolas at least half-Sindarin.

So... NOW what do all you guys think about this?

[Imric]

Originally posted by Durin1
This mind sound like a crazy idea but...

What if Legolas purely and simply put himself forward to go?

Exactly. After all, Legolas was a comparatively young Elf who had apparently never done anything, or been anywhere in a time of adventure and intrigue. Moreover, as the time of the Elves in Middle-earth grew short, the opportunities for the son of a king to prove himself dwindled. If Legolas wished to have any accomplishments to his credit before slipping away un-noticed (and forgotten) into the UttermostWest, joining the Fellowship offered one last, best hope to distinquish himself in some noteworthy fashion.

[Elanor the Fair]

The success of the Fellowship was not to be found in choosing powerful representatives of the Free Peoples of the world....

...in this matter it would be well to trust rather to their friendship than to great wisdom. Even if you were to choose for us an elf-lord, such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road to the Fire by the power that is in him.

These words were spoken by Gandalf, who was certain to play a part in the selection of the Fellowship. He could foresee that personal attributes such as loyalty, determination and the ability to empathise and form close friendships would be more useful on this quest than power or wisdom.

I believe that Legolas was chosen partly because Gandalf could see these attributes within him (don't forget, Gandalf is an expert at summing up hidden talents - remember Bilbo in the Hobbit). These talents that Legolas possessed were instrumental in the healing or relations between the Dwarves and the Elves.