Christian Virtues Tolkien

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
When Mercutio asked me in PM if she could make this thread, I told her yes, but to post it in the ME forum, but now that I've read that much of this discussion is based around the movie, then the movie forum is where it belongs. I thought it was going to be a thread about Christianity in Tolkien. That would cover all his stuff.

Since Valandil is so dizzy, I should move it back to the ME forum, just for a goof. But I won't.

So IS Mercutio a girl?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Valandil
So IS Mercutio a girl?

I have it from a good source that she is.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Mercutio
Yet the true nature of masculinity and femininity is one of the things at the very heart of Tolkien's vision of virtue. To truly value and live out the masculine and feminine idioms in sacrificial love is, to Tolkien, to submit to the created order, whereas the refusal to honor masculinity and femininity is tantamount to rebellion.

this isn't quite on topic... but it's closer than any other post

the above statement about tolkien's vision doesn't seem to jive with his portrayal of eowyn (in the book)... an arguable 'masculine' women, who achieves honor, and ultimately love, through expressing herself against the grain of common culture

galadriel is also portrayed in the book in a much stronger light than celeborn... it is she after all who deals with the important issue of the ring, not celeborn

the movie does make arwen into a figure she was not in the book, but the type of women she represented was present in tolkien's writings

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
the above statement about tolkien's vision doesn't seem to jive with his portrayal of eowyn (in the book)... an arguable 'masculine' women, who achieves honor, and ultimately love, through expressing herself against the grain of common culture

the movie does make arwen into a figure she was not in the book, but the type of women she represented was present in tolkien's writings

Where would you suggest that Arwen was the type of woman who would turn against the "created order" in the way she did (as the long first/second post outlined)?

And didn't Eowyn in part "rebel" when she chose to fight? And as I stated the refusal to submit to the created order is "tantamount to rebellion"?

[Ultimatejoe]

I;d love to divulge my thoughts on Christianity, but they may alienate a few people. Needless to say, the ideals of Christ and Christianity are admirable, and Tolkien to a large degree sticks to them.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Mercutio
Where would you suggest that Arwen was the type of woman who would turn against the "created order" in the way she did (as the long first/second post outlined)?

as i said, i don't think arwen was the type to take on the role portrayed in the movie... that said, tolkien did have women in his novel who took a similar kind of role... so while i can accept the fact that arwen is not portrayed as tolkien represented her, i do not see anything that points to a "created order" in tolkien's work where men are men and women or women... in fact, for his time i think he was quite forward-thinking in this matter

And didn't Eowyn in part "rebel" when she chose to fight? And as I stated the refusal to submit to the created order is "tantamount to rebellion"?

i don't quite get what you mean here

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Ultimatejoe
I;d love to divulge my thoughts on Christianity, but they may alienate a few people.

most people here are pretty open about honest discussion as long as you are respectful and stay away from personal attacks

i've expressed some rather radical thoughts, and if i've alienated anyone because of it, they've kept it to themselves

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
the movie does make arwen into a figure she was not in the book, but the type of women she represented was present in tolkien's writings

If you believe that Tolkien acknowledged a "created order," Eowen's breaking that (when, in the movie, she fights--normally at this point a task for the men), she would be, in part, rebelling against this "created order."

the refusal to honor masculinity and femininity is tantamount to rebellion.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
most people here are pretty open about honest discussion as long as you are respectful and stay away from personal attacks

i've expressed some rather radical thoughts, and if i've alienated anyone because of it, they've kept it to themselves

Yeah Ultimatejoe... we'll probably just pray for you!

You're certainly welcome to express your opinions though... if you mis-state any facts, we'll likely try to correct you... and we can generally stay good-natured in doing so. There are actually some nice threads in the GM forum specifically FOR discussing religions. So... have at it!

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Mercutio
If you believe that Tolkien acknowledged a "created order," Eowen's breaking that (when, in the movie, she fights--normally at this point a task for the men), she would be, in part, rebelling against this "created order."

i guess this is where we differ, i don't see any acknowledgement in tolkien's work of a 'created order'... from luthien to galadriel to eowyn, he put many women in what would normally have been the 'masculine' role... and these women were respected for it

i think the movie misrepresents certain characters, but the theme that some women take more 'masculine' roles was already present in tolkien's work

[Ultimatejoe]

If I were to define christianity in three words I would probably choose "authoritarian, pacifistic, and fatalistic." Really this is how it boils down to me. Christians are seemingly taught to accept the structure of their belief system without question (regardless of the beliefs themselves), to embrace peaceful cooperation (only so long as the people you are cooperating with are Christian), and to accept the fact that your individual fate is a function of your faith, while fate in general is 'prophesized' in detail.

[Valandil]

First of all, please take it to an appropriate thread in GM forum... someone will likely respond to you there. One in recent use is 'The REAL Debate for Religion' thread.

We don't want to clutter the Tolkien forums with religious or political discussion.

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Ultimatejoe
If I were to define christianity in three words I would probably choose "authoritarian, pacifistic, and fatalistic." Really this is how it boils down to me. Christians are seemingly taught to accept the structure of their belief system without question (regardless of the beliefs themselves), to embrace peaceful cooperation (only so long as the people you are cooperating with are Christian), and to accept the fact that your individual fate is a function of your faith, while fate in general is 'prophesized' in detail.

And if I were to define your statement in just one word I would probably choose "ignorant"

Sorry , seriously now, I don't think it is possible to accept the belief system regardless of your own beliefs. I for one belief in what I belief

And what you say about fate being a function of your faith, it sounds to me to Luther or Calvino (though I may be wrong) but I don't think it may be applied to all christians. Certainly not to catholics.

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Valandil
First of all, please take it to an appropriate thread in GM forum... someone will likely respond to you there. One in recent use is 'The REAL Debate for Religion' thread.

We don't want to clutter the Tolkien forums with religious or political discussion.

Sorry, crosspost and it seems you're right Val. I forgot I was not on GM

[Ultimatejoe]

I was going somewhere with this... trust me. Tolkien's literature is riddled with Catholic influences, there is no denying it. The two are not analogous however. In LOTR the subject of religion is glossed over, but one thing is clear, every culture has it's own understanding of death and the afterlife. Now, since burial and death tradition is the forerunner for all religion we can infer a few things. For one, Tolkien's world is decidely unreligious. The people of Rohan do not include deistic elements in their "spiritual" environment. One could also accept that the same is true of Gondor, although it is less easily proved. The hobbits make no mention of religion so it is hard to infer from them what sort of religion if any is present in that society. (The same can be said of Bree and the Orcs.)

Now from elsewhere in his literature we know that Arda WAS populated by demiurgic beings, who were all of a pantheon of lesser beings under one god-like entity. What is profoundly un-Christian in this presence is the role that these figures play in the development of mankind. In the Akallabeth the gods come to realize that mankind cannot be saved; in fact their interventions become less and less appropriate. Each time mankind encounters one of the Ainur a downfall proceeds.

Now, my previous post demands some attention. I apologize for wording my beliefs so poorly. I don't really think I made my point. What I was trying to say is that Christianity is a profoundly authority-derived belief system. Whether it is the authority of God, Christ, or the church the presence of a higher power that asserts lordship ("Lord our God") over the lesser beings is universal in every element of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic family of faiths. This is, in my mind, not present ANYWHERE in Tolkien's writing. While Eru certainly could be seen as a Lord, or it is only in the sense that he has an innate power in his own creation. Authority in Arda is vested in the Valar (who slowly relenquish it), and no being (even Iluvatar himself) may excercise dominion over the spirits of the Eruhini (children of Iluvatar.)

[brownjenkins]

i think you put it pretty well... while tolkien was undoubtably christian he seems to have left most aspects of christianity out of his work... unless you want to look at it in the broadest of terms (good vs. evil), which is a stretch to attribute solely to any religion

i see a lot more parallels with norse and other 'pagan' mythologies, which were things that interested him greatly

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Ultimatejoe
... Now, since burial and death tradition is the forerunner for all religion we can infer a few things...

Ultimatejoe - from what you wrote, this is the only portion I really have any problem with, unless you make it subjective, by saying 'in my opinion' or some such. That's not something you can really KNOW. In MY opinion, GOD is the forerunner of religion.

I see though that you DO want to add to the discussion of Tolkien's faith impacting his work - so I concede to you the appropriateness of posting in this thread on it.

And... I'll agree with Fat middle that not all Christians see what you call 'fate' in such an absolute way. That's primarily a Calvinistic doctrine (often called 'predestination'). Catholics and others like myself (of a denomination which adheres to the teachings of John Wesley) believe strongly in free will. There is in fact, I believe, an interplay going on. We understand God to give us free will in many matters - and yet, there are things about which He will choose to be sovereign. Don't confuse God's foreknowledge of events with fore-ordination of events... we believe He CAN know the outcome of what someone else will decide - without making that decision for them.

That was to try to clear up possible misconceptions about the Christian faith... now about Tolkien's work and, more specifically, Middle-earth:

I am of the opinion that Tolkien shied away from displaying religion in the people-groups of Middle-earth out of respect for his own faith. He didn't want to write some part of their history that would mimic Christ - to him that would have been blasphemous. Nor did he want to have some sort of a 'pseudo-Christianity' in their cultures... for similar reasons. And yet, he didn't want to create other, alternative religions for them which he would have considered to be 'false'. Therefore, I think he just avoided religion per se... but tried to apply Christian principles throughout the work.

Also - if you don't see 'God' in LOTR, I think you're just missing Him. Note those times when something fortuitous 'happens'... what we might call 'fate' - but is, I believe, the hand of 'The One' at work. Although each person who comes into contact with the Ring and the Ringbearer have their choices to make, and will bear consequences in accordance with those choices - it seems that 'The One' has worked substantially 'behind the scenes' to bring about His own will... the destruction of the Ring and the defeat of Sauron. That part agrees with the Catholic (and Wesleyan) concept of God. Re-read 'Shadow of the Past' with this thought in mind and see if you agree or disagree. In Gandalf's view, there are no coincidences!

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Valandil
Also - if you don't see 'God' in LOTR, I think you're just missing Him. Note those times when something fortuitous 'happens'... what we might call 'fate' - but is, I believe, the hand of 'The One' at work. Although each person who comes into contact with the Ring and the Ringbearer have their choices to make, and will bear consequences in accordance with those choices - it seems that 'The One' has worked substantially 'behind the scenes' to bring about His own will... the destruction of the Ring and the defeat of Sauron. That part agrees with the Catholic (and Wesleyan) concept of God. Re-read 'Shadow of the Past' with this thought in mind and see if you agree or disagree. In Gandalf's view, there are no coincidences!

true, but you also see this same 'hand' in tales like homer's oddesy... i think what you call christian principles are concepts that existed in the pre-christian pagan world as well... only tolkien knows his inspirations, but the concepts did not originate with christianity

i do agree with your assessment on why tolkien left religion out of his books... he did not want disrespect his own belief system... this is exactly why i think he hearkened back to the more general 'pagan' concepts of godlike beings interacting with mankind in a more removed fashion

[Valandil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
true, but you also see this same 'hand' in tales like homer's oddesy... i think what you call christian principles are concepts that existed in the pre-christian pagan world as well... only tolkien knows his inspirations, but the concepts did not originate with christianity

i do agree with your assessment on why tolkien left religion out of his books... he did not want disrespect his own belief system... this is exactly why i think he hearkened back to the more general 'pagan' concepts of godlike beings interacting with mankind in a more removed fashion

Actually - I was talking more about a concept of God here than I was of Christian principles. For the latter, see Mercutio's list at the beginning of the thread, for starters. And I agree with you (as you can see in an earlier exchange between Ultimatejoe and me) that these principles are not unique to Christianity nor exclusively Christian.

Ultimatejoe: sorry - but the name makes me think of my GI Joe soldiers when I was quite young! But since you're from Seattle, it's probably a coffee reference, right? (EDIT: Oops! You're not one of our Seattlites after all, are you? I must've been thinking of someone else... IS that a coffee reference though?)

[Ultimatejoe]

No, it's an Ultimate Frisbee reference actually.

In MY opinion, GOD is the forerunner of religion.

Unless God has a penchant for confusing people, at least some established religions have come to pass without the involvement of the God you choose to believe in. The link between unanswerable questions and The Answer is hard to ignore in those cases.

Regardless, what you see as a guiding hand I see as inconsequential. If you will recall Gandalf merely says that Bilbo was meant to find the ring, not that SOMEONE meant him to find it. Did Eru guide him to it? No. Recall his comments to Melkor though in the Valaquenta... He tells Melkor that the misery he has wrought into the Themes will only lead to sorrow and greater joy. Fate operates independtly of Eru.

The subject of Predestination is an interesting one for this debate. While I know the difference between the different schools of Christian thinking on the subject, the fact is that they all believe that the fate of the world is decided. Revelations makes it quite clear that eventually Armageddon will come; and those events have been foretold (to varying degrees depending on who you talk to.) Now Tolkien drafted an Armageddon of sorts; the Dagor Dagorlath. However, he made a conscious effort to expunge it from his work. As it was published Tolkien envisioned a world where the fate of the world was a mystery, even to Eru. In Christian terms we are all creations of God. In Tolkien the Eruhini are creations to be sure, but they also posess the Flame Imperishable; making them creative entities of their own, which he can no more command than he could Melkor.