Christians- biblical view on Hermaphrodites

[Lady Magpie]

ooh, sticky issue! fun!

Right.

Rian, might I add to that list?

Catholic church: burned many people as heretics for believing what they thought to be the wrong thing. Oh, and there were the crusades, and the witch hunts, oh, and the Puritans with their witch hangings. . .anyway, point being, let's not pretend any religious organization is guilt free, here. (Note: religious organization, not god/goddess.)

Anyway.

Thing with corrective surgery is that doctors can guess wrong about the child in question's gender which can make for a pretty miserable existance. Being the "wrong" sex for your gender. Can make things more difficult.

Thing with normalcy is, I don't think anyone really is. Normal.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Lady Magpie
Rian, might I add to that list?

Catholic church: burned many people as heretics for believing what they thought to be the wrong thing. Oh, and there were the crusades, and the witch hunts, oh, and the Puritans with their witch hangings. . .anyway, point being, let's not pretend any religious organization is guilt free, here. (Note: religious organization, not god/goddess.)

Yes - many attrocities were done 'in the name of Christ / Christianity' which are completely AGAINST what Christ and the Bible teach. If you'll note though, our mentions of these religions which routinely practiced child sacrifice were in response to unfounded and unfair accusations of how Bible-believing Christians would deal with the birth of a hermaphodite child. Going into various abuses in history by any who acted out of line with precepts actually taught by the Christian faith is taking this thread way off-topic.

Thing with corrective surgery is that doctors can guess wrong about the child in question's gender which can make for a pretty miserable existance. Being the "wrong" sex for your gender. Can make things more difficult.

Thing with normalcy is, I don't think anyone really is. Normal.

You know - I had been thinking something like, 'Thankfully we HAVE those surgeries now' (for these situations only - I am not in favor of them for sex-change operations) - but you DO have a point that when they're performed so early, the physicians making the decision might just be making a 'guess'! I imagine they use their best judgement - but still, like someone mentioned earlier in the thread, this can be poorly handled.

What you say about normal brings to mind a book I saw recently: "Everyone is Normal... Until You Get to Know Them"

[Starr Polish]

I agree, it is amazing that we have corrective surgeries for this area (though I personally do not have a problem with sex-change operations) but a dangerous thing to do early on. I cannot imagine what it would be like to be raised as one sex while your gender is actually the complete opposite. Of course, you can always hope that anyone who does have to go through that ends up having a more androgynous mind anyway. Heck...it's a benefit for anyone to have some androgynous qualities, mind-wise.

[Insidious Rex]

Just heard about a case relative to this where a baby boy had a very badly botched circumcision operation and this one doctor convinced the parents to, instead of raising him as a boy, have all the necessary changes made so he essentially became (physically) a little girl. And then they should raise him as a little girl because the doctors theory was that it was all about nurture and not nature. This was in the early 60s. But of course the kid grew up feeling very much like he was a freak and why he/she never felt anything like a girl even though he/she seemed to be a girl. He was ready to go insane and then found out what happened when he was 17 and insisted on reversing himself back to being a male. He later married and had (adopted) kids and lived a relatively normal life but a few years ago commited suicide. Apparently the trauma of being essentially a guinea pig as a child and having his sex swapped on him was too much for him to develop a healthy psyche. And, although he wasn’t a hermaphrodite, it tells us something about how these kinds of issues shouldn’t be giggled off as insignificant. Yer always talking about a human life.

[BeardofPants]

Ergh, that's disturbing. You gotta link?

[Lady Magpie]

Originally posted by Valandil
Yes - many attrocities were done 'in the name of Christ / Christianity' which are completely AGAINST what Christ and the Bible teach. If you'll note though, our mentions of these religions which routinely practiced child sacrifice were in response to unfounded and unfair accusations of how Bible-believing Christians would deal with the birth of a hermaphodite child. Going into various abuses in history by any who acted out of line with precepts actually taught by the Christian faith is taking this thread way off-topic.

Yes, they do go very much against what the bible seems to teach, which is why I pointed out that I was looking at religous organizations. I read through the whole thread, and understand the context. However, as I said, let no one organization stand free of guilt. I'm not trying to go off-topic, rather, to point out that it's not just the pagans who do nasty things to each other.

for these situations only - I am not in favor of them for sex-change operations

Why? I'm just curious about your views. I think it's still on topic. . .

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Ergh, that's disturbing. You gotta link?

oh thats right make me look crap up...

Heres a link from before he killed himself: http://www.moss-fritch.com/medical_error.htm

And here are some recent links for the book about his case: As Nature Made Him

Harper Collins

EDIT: By the way his suicide was much more recent then I originally said. Guess thats why hes been in the news.

[BeardofPants]

Ta. Interesting read.

[Starr Polish]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Just heard about a case relative to this where a baby boy had a very badly botched circumcision operation and this one doctor convinced the parents to, instead of raising him as a boy, have all the necessary changes made so he essentially became (physically) a little girl. And then they should raise him as a little girl because the doctors theory was that it was all about nurture and not nature. This was in the early 60s. But of course the kid grew up feeling very much like he was a freak and why he/she never felt anything like a girl even though he/she seemed to be a girl. He was ready to go insane and then found out what happened when he was 17 and insisted on reversing himself back to being a male. He later married and had (adopted) kids and lived a relatively normal life but a few years ago commited suicide. Apparently the trauma of being essentially a guinea pig as a child and having his sex swapped on him was too much for him to develop a healthy psyche. And, although he wasn’t a hermaphrodite, it tells us something about how these kinds of issues shouldn’t be giggled off as insignificant. Yer always talking about a human life.

I was just flipping through old post and stumbled on this. We learned about this in my Intro Psych class when comparing nature vs. nurture. I can't remember the last name, but the case study was Bruce/Brenda/David. David's twin, Brad, also committed suicide.

I love psychology. (I should, it's my major).

edit: Stupid me for not looking at all the posts. But, another interesting point:

There are also cases when someone is genetically male (meaning if you mapped their genome they would have XY chromosomes) yet are outwardly female because of androgen insensitivity and usually have a gender idenity of female. What would you consider this?

[Hemel]

A couple of quick comments

The boy who had the botched surgery for circumcision I heard of also. But it's interesting that both he and his twin killed themselves. I wonder why ... because if it was just the one twin who'd had the surgery gone wrong who'd killed himself then it'd be easy to 'blame' the fact he'd been brought up the opposite gender. But with both of them ... then what is it? Something in their nature or nurture ... ? ... or ... just how much psychological damage to both of them did that doctor do ...?

Ruinel
if a mother birthed a baby that had both a vagina and a set of testicles, that this baby would be "given up to the lord" for it's imperfection. What else could they have done with it, being primitive, and restricted by religious law and governed by their bible.

Just as an addition to this - there are suggestions (don't make me go look them up, I just heard it in passing in an archaeology lecture ) that people in some of what we'd call pagan societies could actually venerate those who were intersex or intergender. So - they had specific and sometimes honoured (including ritual) roles to perform in their societies. There are ideas too that more than just two genders were recognised - rather as we're beginning to do today again. So we can't assume that just because people were 'primitive' - whatever that means - that they'd go knocking people on the head all over the place just because they didn't match what OUR sense of normality and correctness might be. Also - anyone know of the case of the Egyptian mummy? The body was retrieved from the river and badly decomposed before it was mummified, and those who preserved it (the archaeologists said) weren't sure if it were male or female, so they prepared it with symbols (including, I believe, a reconstructed penis) from both sexes. So - does this mean that in some ways it didn't really matter? or they were hedging their bets? or even that this may have been a case of someone known to that society whose body was later found, who was intersex? Anyone know, btw, if mummification was carried out only for important people (and animals)? (Egyptians emphatically NOT my period )

btw, in terms of corrective surgery .... I have problems over this if it is just to create a 'normality'. Should we (general we) not also be examining our own prejudices?

[Starr Polish]

On the corrective surgery issue:

I think it should not be done until the individual is an adult and only if said individual wishes to have it.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Sminty_Smeagol

well the number of gay people fluctuates and is differnet from culture to culture, so maybe homosexuality is enfluenced by culture, time, etc. But Hermaphrodites are both male and female no matter what. And if they pursue any relationship at all it would be homosexual. Many people seem to be able to decide their sexual preferances, or it is atleast enfluenced by culture. However, what if a 'woman' is 'straight' except for the fact she has testicles so at the same time she is gay?

I must add... the number of gay people who come out of the closet fluctuates from culture to culture. Who knows what it would really be like if all people could be themselves without fear?

Your comments, Hemel, remind me of two-spirited people of some native cultures. Interesting thought.

[EarthBound]

I think I'm safe enough here to admit this entire thread is in large part about me. Born in '68 in rural Oregon to loving parents I was declared 'male'. A ticking biological time-bomb finally went off in the mid-late '70's when all my friends were discussing their new developing bodies I was living a day to day horror as my chest was growing faster than for many of the girls in my class. I can't possibly get into all the specifics of my life so I'll stick to the subject.

The church was comfortable with me marrying a female, though I certainly "knew" I was female. I married and stayed married to a wonderful gal. It's the commitment that is important to us (loyalty, faithfulness, trust, great love).

I now work for the government at a great job as female and wouldn't have it any other way.

My spouse and I regularly attend church though we hide our marriage to avoid the issue. People do not like to be challenged and my life and its necessary choices does just that . . . challenges beliefs and notions.

I live a quiet, professional life in rural New York, and I was born knowing God loved me regardless; it's people here on Earth that have worked hard to vex me.

I’ve been hurt too many times not to be scared with sharing any part of my story, but I’m hopefully safe enough in my obscure ID here. Life is just one short beautiful blink; I wish we could all get along better for such a short ride.

[Insidious Rex]

Astounding. More power to you. It must feel good to get acceptance when you get it and not have people reject you out of hand simply because of their belief system despite any human aspect about you. Although I dare say there are many that are quite pleased with you that you keep things tame and quiet and down play the marriage because they just dont want to have to deal with the whole issue really. kind of a dont ask dont tell think i guess.

[Nurvingiel]

Welcome to the Moot EarthBound! I hope you enjoy it here, I think you'll find the people kind and the discussion exciting.

My cousin is also transgendered, but his situation wasn't exactly the same as yours. It was hard for him too though. When he was born, he was female. But really, he was a guy mysteriously in a female body. Now, he lives as he is (a man) with his loving female partner who has shared a great deal with him and knows he's trans.

I don't think our society understands transgendered people at all. There's a lot of discrimination against gay people, but at least our society is starting to get it. I'm a run of the mill straight person, but at least I realize that there are many ways to be a human being. Sexuality is one expression of human diversity. There are many ways to be gay, and many ways to be transgendered. The whole point of our diversity is that we don't fit into a narrow box. ('Mambo Italiano' was quite uplifting on that point.)

Maybe we should branch off and have a transgendered thread? Or should we join the "Gays, Lesbians, Bisexuals" thread?

EDIT: IR and I posted at the same time.

[BeardofPants]

Hi Earthbound! Welcome, and thanks for your perspective.

[Nerdanel]

Welcome, Earthbound!

I must agree with Nurv there: society doesn't understand transgendered people, and i'm sure one reason is that they aren't talked about too much. it's something strange and mysterious in many people's minds.
It's also true that no one fits into a narrow box. i just wish people understood that.

[EarthBound]

Thank you for the congenial postings. Transgendered is a recent term, but I’ve went under that label recently for ease of conversation. Intersexed was the term I heard most growing up, and that from a “special” medical group in Portland, Oregon as they discussed me like a peculiar floor lamp occupying a sad corner. I was often referred to as the intersexed patient. It was a surreal experience each time (referenced to never by my name), the horrible-awkward-silent trips to/from the specialist (if there was such a thing then) with parents.

Funny, I haven’t thought about this in a while. I was fortunate to have enough female traits that I’ve passed as either male or female all my life, and that’s just what it was “passing as a male or female”. I tried to be the ‘boy’ for my father who quit talking to me once I hit puberty, but he committed suicide in 1990 leaving me to take my own path.

I have met individuals who will call themselves transgendered and I have to believe that it is also something more than a “thought process” for them, as though they are “hard-wired” as a female in a male body. They appear for all intent and purposes much like an intersexed person, but with less shared physical attributes (M/F).

I often feel I am torn between guilt and relief on a subject that will likely only interest me . . . I am thankful for passing as either sex, yet I regret not being “beautiful, or as beautiful as I would like”, call me vain but feeling attractive has proven a confidence booster for me while trying to “exist” with some sense of normalcy in my life. On top of that I feel sad or maybe a little ashamed that I am both gifted and afflicted with passing as either sex while soooo many are trapped in bodies that do not reflect their “inner person”. I don’t think I’m the only “intergraded-gal” out here that feels that way. Intergraded: because we’ve successfully disappeared into the world with little to no clues about our state of origin. We’re like the spiritually lame that have been first healed, then led through the baffled gender-confused masses feeling both (as before mentioned) relieved and guilty. Now that I’ve lanced that historic boil off my strange beginnings I’ll let everyone continue on with the thread. Sorry for the lengthy post.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by EarthBound

I have met individuals who will call themselves transgendered and I have to believe that it is also something more than a “thought process” for them, as though they are “hard-wired” as a female in a male body. They appear for all intent and purposes much like an intersexed person, but with less shared physical attributes (M/F).

That's what it's like for my cousin, but as I mentioned his situation is different than yours. We don't really need lables anyway. You are EarthBound, if any label is needed.

I often feel I am torn between guilt and relief on a subject that will likely only interest me . . . I am thankful for passing as either sex, yet I regret not being “beautiful, or as beautiful as I would like”, call me vain but feeling attractive has proven a confidence booster for me while trying to “exist” with some sense of normalcy in my life.

I don't think this is a vain or silly feeling. I can't possibly imagine what it might have been like for you growing up, or dealing with society now, but you sound like a strong and wise person (from your two excellent posts anyway).
I would personally feel relief if I was in your situation and could "pass" for either sex, because than you know you can "fall back" on the other gender in a potentially awkward situation that you want to avoid. I would personally avoid that, but I imagine it would be nice to know it was there. Then again, I really have no clue what I'm talking about. However, I think liking being attractive is a general human trait, and there's nothing wrong with anyone feeling that way. It's where we judge others on looks alone where problems arise.

On top of that I feel sad or maybe a little ashamed that I am both gifted and afflicted with passing as either sex while soooo many are trapped in bodies that do not reflect their “inner person”. I don’t think I’m the only “intergraded-gal” out here that feels that way. Intergraded: because we’ve successfully disappeared into the world with little to no clues about our state of origin. We’re like the spiritually lame that have been first healed, then led through the baffled gender-confused masses feeling both (as before mentioned) relieved and guilty. Now that I’ve lanced that historic boil off my strange beginnings I’ll let everyone continue on with the thread. Sorry for the lengthy post.

Don't be sorry, we at the Moot love lengthly posts, right Rian? (She OWNS lengthly posts. You haven't seen anything till you read some of her posts in the religion thread which have about 5 parts. Or there's threads from the old board before the post size limit that take up the entire page. )
I think you points are perfectly relevant, we can expand our discussion from "biblical" and "hemaphrodites" to be a little more general. I don't know if anyone has something to add on the original topic.

Or do they?

[BeardofPants]

Earthbound, I can only say that it is refreshing to get a transgendered perspective on the topic at hand. Please don't feel that you have to stop because you've said too much! You have a "unique" perspective to share, and I for one, would like to hear more of it.