State of the Union Address 2004 - Page 2

***Valandil*** · 01-19-2004, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Well as I said I think the whole concept is corrupt and both parties have taken advantage of this. Now there are a lot of people who think the republicans have really taken it up a notch recently but thats a subject for others to debate and Im more concerned with the inherent faults of the system.

Well theres got to be a more independent group out there then the actually winners of the elections themselves even if there are some token losers thrown in. And if we need to worry about people bribing them then we are back to square one. there should be an individual (like a judge) or a body of equivalent stature who can base the districts on figures alone and not use sophisticated computer programs to maximize their parties power while still declaring they are following the population rules and therefore everything is above board. the rules need to change in that case.

I don't know how we could find an unbiased group. I certainly don't think judges are unbiased.

Also don't believe the Republicans 'took it up a notch' as you seem led to believe. You should see the districts in Illinois... drawn by Democrats. Fingers reaching all over, every which way, across counties, in-and-out of Chicago with absolutely no reason or rhyme (EDIT: unless you're a politician).

Frankly, I think the Democratic congresspersons from Texas who left the state to avoid the issue coming to a vote should be booted right out of congress. They were shirking their duties and making a bigger stink about it than ever should have been. I imagine the previous boundaries in Texas were just as bad - only favoring THEM instead of their opponents.

*sigh* Sorry JD, we should probably have a 're-districting' thread...

Ruinel · 01-19-2004, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
you and me both. What a fiasco that whole thing has been. I cant believe that this kind of thing is allowed to happen. I mean this is supposed to be a democracy and the party in power (yes BOTH parties do this) gets to rewrite the rules to rig things so they always have a majority? How can that be allowed in this country! And just out in the open just bold faced and unapologetic like that. That’s not democracy. Its just corruption. Reminds me of something mob run unions might do. Why cant they come up with a different way of determining districts perhaps based on the census every 10 years or something. Districts should NOT be allowed to be determined by the party in power.

You can't imagine how much I agree with this.

The whole thing makes my stomach turn.

So I guess you've heard about it. I didn't know if it made national news or not. It's just so damn upsetting.

Ruinel · 01-19-2004, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Based on whatever it takes to keep the current party in power you mean. thats why you get these ridiculous puzzle shaped districts with long tendrils. and if its SIMPLY based on innocent census data that comes out every ten years then why do they just HAPPEN to do this when they happen to come into power in their particular state? its corrupt to the core and its obviously so.

It's called "gerimandering" (sp?)

....(see? I really was awake during Goverment class.

)

Ruinel · 01-19-2004, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Valandil
...Also don't believe the Republicans 'took it up a notch' as you seem led to believe...

He said it wasn't just Republicans. His exact words were... "I mean this is supposed to be a democracy and the party in power (yes BOTH parties do this) gets to rewrite the rules to rig things so they always have a majority? How can that be allowed in this country!"

He said, "both parties do this". He's not singling out one party.

***Valandil*** · 01-19-2004, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
He said it wasn't just Republicans. His exact words were... "I mean this is supposed to be a democracy and the party in power (yes BOTH parties do this) gets to rewrite the rules to rig things so they always have a majority? How can that be allowed in this country!"

He said, "both parties do this". He's not singling out one party.

In the quote of his that I quote, from where you take my quote (whew!

) he says:

Quote:

Now there are a lot of people who think the republicans have really taken it up a notch...

That's what I was referring to. Just shortened up the wording for simplicity in conveying a response.

Ruinel · 01-19-2004, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Valandil
In the quote of his that I quote, from where you take my quote (whew! ) he says:

That's what I was referring to. Just shortened up the wording for simplicity in conveying a response.

Ah, I see. Sorry then.

jerseydevil · 01-20-2004, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Yes Im talking about the states. Specifically what several of them went through (not just Texas) when republicans did so well in the last election. Beautiful map. I would like to be able to see that color key up close though so I could read it.

You could have bothered to click on the link I supplied - then you would have been able to go into the PDF file and look at the larger map.

jerseydevil · 01-20-2004, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
You can't imagine how much I agree with this. The whole thing makes my stomach turn.

So I guess you've heard about it. I didn't know if it made national news or not. It's just so damn upsetting.

Of course it made national news - the texas democrats ran across the border and hid out TWICE in hotel rooms.

It's a state issue - take it up with your state. But as Valandil said - the democrats had no problems with taking advantage of everythign while they controlled both houses. It has only been recently - since Bill Clinton that the Republicans have controlled both houses. Now that is the case - the democrats are whine whine whine.

And if you think IR is impartial in his beliefs when it comes to democrats and republicans - I have a bridge to sell you that crosses the East River.

Even with NJ's way of doing redistricting - people get up in arms about it and say that it is rigged and unfair. People don't like to have their districts changed and they have to.

By the way - if you want to talk about this - I suppose there should be a redistricting thread.

Ruinel · 01-20-2004, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Of course it made national news - the texas democrats ran across the border and hid out TWICE in hotel rooms.

It's a state issue - take it up with your state.

Oh, I will. I vote.

Quote:

But as Valandil said - the democrats had no problems with taking advantage of everythign while they controlled both houses. It has only been recently - since Bill Clinton that the Republicans have controlled both houses. Now that is the case - the democrats are whine whine whine.

Um... read my post again. I never said that I was blaming only the republicans. IR said BOTH parties and I AGREED with that. sheesh! step back for just one second. I'm not attacking the republicans... so don't read that into it, please.

Quote:

And if you think IR is impartial in his beliefs when it comes to democrats and republicans - I have a bridge to sell you that crosses the East River.

I don't buy bridges. Thanks for the offer.

Insidious Rex · 01-20-2004, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
And if you think IR is impartial in his beliefs when it comes to democrats and republicans - I have a bridge to sell you that crosses the East River.

too late. I already sold that bridge three times.

And this from the King of partiality.

Ruinel · 01-20-2004, 12:52 AM

Hey, you have to give JD credit.

You always know where he stands.

Which really is a comfort.

jerseydevil · 01-20-2004, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
Um... read my post again. I never said that I was blaming only the republicans. IR said BOTH parties and I AGREED with that. sheesh! step back for just one second. I'm not attacking the republicans... so don't read that into it, please.

I was merely agreeing with Valandil and pointing this out that the Congress has been controlled by the democrats for decades. Now everything that they used to do is wrong from their stand point becuase they are no longer the ones in control.

Ruinel · 01-20-2004, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I was merely agreeing with Valandil and pointing this out that the Congress has been controlled by the democrats for decades. Now everything that they used to do is wrong from their stand point becuase they are no longer the ones in control.

No, it's just wrong. Not from anyone's stand point, either. It's just wrong, period.

Dúnedain · 01-20-2004, 01:03 AM

Damn, now I know why 24 isn't on this week

<---addicted to that show!

I probably won't watch, only because the History Channel is running a special on Barbarians and the final 2 hours are Tuesday at 9pm EST. Tuesday's episode will be the good one too, as they will be covering the Huns

jerseydevil · 01-20-2004, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
No, it's just wrong. Not from anyone's stand point, either. It's just wrong, period.

The majority party managing the committees though isn't wrong. The majority party chairs the committees, they control the most seats - therefore it is fair that and right that they should be chairing them.

***Valandil*** · 01-20-2004, 08:48 AM

Did someone say they're selling a bridge???

Anyway, partisanship aside, I really don't think it was at all right for the Texas Democrats to do their little "border cross / hang out at hotel" thing. For one, it was obstructionist and kept their state government from functioning, so it was a violation of the trust of the people of Texas. For another, I'm sure they continued to draw their salaries while not fulfilling the office to which they were elected. For another, I suspect their hotel bill went to the taxpayers of Texas.

Imagine a 'real world' scenario: Suppose I worked for a large company, and me and a whole bunch of co-workers didn't like something that was going to happen there. So we didn't report in to work, continued to expect our pay, and to top it off, we all holed up in a hotel - and charged the bill to our company!

Would we be keeping our jobs? Why should those legislators? I imagine they may have done more harm to their own party than the Republicans ever could do by redistricting - that is, if the people of Texas think about it in these terms.

Oh - and imagine what those Democrats would say if the tables were turned and the Republicans pulled a stunt like that!

Ruinel · 01-20-2004, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dúnedain
...I probably won't watch, only because the History Channel is running a special on Barbarians and the final 2 hours are Tuesday at 9pm EST. Tuesday's episode will be the good one too, as they will be covering the Huns

GAH!!

BLASTED NIGHT CLASS!!! I wanted to see that show!

(and this is coming from someone who rarely watches TV at all)

*sigh* ...at least it's PC Hardware...

I like that class.

Ruinel · 01-20-2004, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
The majority party managing the committees though isn't wrong. The majority party chairs the committees, they control the most seats - therefore it is fair that and right that they should be chairing them.

I was talking about the redistricting in Texas... what the hell were you talking about? I think we might be discussing two different issues here. Or perhaps you misunderstand what I'm talking about.

....I stand misunderstood.... again.

***Valandil*** · 01-20-2004, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
I was talking about the redistricting in Texas... what the hell were you talking about? I think we might be discussing two different issues here. Or perhaps you misunderstand what I'm talking about.

....I stand misunderstood.... again.

Ruinel, I think JD did understand you... that's why he says "though". I brought up the committees after you brought up the re-districting because I thought I saw some similarities... both in the total control held by the majority party - and in the fairly recent 'broo-ha-hahs' about each after the change in which party was the majority party.

Ruinel · 01-20-2004, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Valandil
Ruinel, I think JD did understand you... that's why he says "though". I brought up the committees after you brought up the re-districting because I thought I saw some similarities... both in the total control held by the majority party - and in the fairly recent 'broo-ha-hahs' about each after the change in which party was the majority party.

Perhaps, but he posted to my post that was about redistricting, not about which party manages committees. I don't even know where that came from.

So, if I misuderstood JD, then I apologize for jumping the gun.

01-20-2004, 01:03 AM	#34
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	Damn, now I know why 24 isn't on this week <---addicted to that show! I probably won't watch, only because the History Channel is running a special on Barbarians and the final 2 hours are Tuesday at 9pm EST. Tuesday's episode will be the good one too, as they will be covering the Huns __________________ 'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen

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01-20-2004, 12:52 AM	#31
Ruinel Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: I have no idea. Posts: 5,441	Hey, you have to give JD credit. You always know where he stands. Which really is a comfort.

01-20-2004, 08:48 AM	#36
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	Did someone say they're selling a bridge??? Anyway, partisanship aside, I really don't think it was at all right for the Texas Democrats to do their little "border cross / hang out at hotel" thing. For one, it was obstructionist and kept their state government from functioning, so it was a violation of the trust of the people of Texas. For another, I'm sure they continued to draw their salaries while not fulfilling the office to which they were elected. For another, I suspect their hotel bill went to the taxpayers of Texas. Imagine a 'real world' scenario: Suppose I worked for a large company, and me and a whole bunch of co-workers didn't like something that was going to happen there. So we didn't report in to work, continued to expect our pay, and to top it off, we all holed up in a hotel - and charged the bill to our company! Would we be keeping our jobs? Why should those legislators? I imagine they may have done more harm to their own party than the Republicans ever could do by redistricting - that is, if the people of Texas think about it in these terms. Oh - and imagine what those Democrats would say if the tables were turned and the Republicans pulled a stunt like that!