Gah politics! Middle East discussion

[markedel]

Ironically enough I also feel that if the arabs made real peace they'd have Israel in less time with less blood-Israelis are a fractious lot at the best of times.

[afro-elf]

I'll make you a friendly bet.

Israel will last longer than 15 years.

If Israel last until March 10th 2017

You by me the latest HOB/LOTR/SIL editions

if it falls before I'll it buy it for you

Deal?

[markedel]

I'll gladly take the wager Anything could happen after all.

[Elbereth Gilthoniel]

Israel has 15 years because

and what will happand to me after this (I live in Israel)

Markedel can you explain it in a little more simple English I didn't undestant anything

[markedel]

My assumption is that the palestinian leadership doesn't want peace because it sees terrorism is an effective strategy against Israel. Therefore Israel has no choice but to wage war. But it can't engage in ethnic celanisng-the world will intervene in favor of the palestinians. I don't know how stable Israeli society is, but as I've said its fractious at the best of times.

If you're religious perhaps you think God will save us, if you're dovish you think the arabs really, really want peace, they just haven't got around to it yet. I'm cynical and see a war Israel can't win. If nothing else demographics beats Israel every time. Perhaps if we North American Jews can be convinced to move...

[markedel]

It's simple-anti-Israel terror is an effective strategy. Israel can't stop it without killing lots of palestinians, something a democracy can't do. If it does try the world stops it, and gives the palestinians what they want. The palestinians use what they get to launch more and more terrorist attacks. Whenever Israel responds the world complains about Israeli aggression. Eventually Israel falls apart. You live in Israel. You think it can tolerate such terrorism for the next 10 years?

I suppose you can think that arabs truly truly do want peace...in which case their state (which I assume will be larger then most Israelis can stomach-unless I'm wrong and enough Israelis will give up the old city) and right of return (which makes Israel not Jewish) makes the issue a moot point.

Or you think god will save us-provided I repent. In which case we're not in luck.

[Radagast The Brown]

Objection!
Hello Markendel.
1. I'm secular and I can't beleive god will save me()
2.yes I think(espacilly because I live in Israel) that we could live in Israel forever(and why not).
3. I can't think something like this(Arabs wants pease) becase it's silly.

[afro-elf]

Why do you feel the state of israel should exist anway?
( considering the way it came to be)

( perosnally I've mixed feelings) BUT since i work in KSA I would rather have a jewish state there than islamic state

[Ararax]

i believe israel will still be there and technically considering how every nation comes about, you cant say they were any worse then william the conquer invadeing england, what are we gonna do drive out all normans from england, its ridiculous or how bout driveing out all muslims from turkey i mean hey they took over the byzantine empire how bout they give up, or drive them out of india where they came into only a few centuarys ago. this is ridiculous

[Radagast The Brown]

of course I feel! I'm Israelian!
the Palastinian people shouid live with the rest of the Arabs and not with us!
and what is KSA?

[afro-elf]

of course I feel! I'm Israelian!

My question was not DO you feel it as WHY do you feel.

i believe israel will still be there and technically considering how every nation comes about, you cant say they were any worse then william the conquer invadeing england, what are we gonna do drive out all normans from england, its ridiculous or how bout driveing out all muslims from turkey i mean hey they took over the byzantine empire how bout they give up, or drive them out of india where they came into only a few centuarys ago. this is ridiculous

you are in error if you think i am saying that the israeli oocupation is WORSE than any other. It still does not negate my feelings toward any invasion.


what i do find "interesting" is that the zionist lobbied for their own state and used the Nazi events and back dealing to get their state. Fine BUT...

" those who fight monsters should beware least they become monsters themselves"

In many ways the israeli government acts like the very Nazis they were persecuted by towards the palestians. Have you seen the condition that many of these people live in? The camps are horrible and they are stateless people.

Just as the jews were.

I don't care if they stay or go for the fact of invading the area. its just the hypocracy and short- term memory i don't like.

the Palastinian people shouid live with the rest of the Arabs and not with us!

Do you support total segregation of all peoples?

sounds like what many said about the jews


KSA means kingdom of saudi arabia

and i say again i'd rather have a jewish state there than an islamic one

[afro-elf]

ararax

maybe a more concrete example would be this

Both the US and China has used its own military to fire upon and kill its own citizens on its own territoty. Tiamimin sq and Kent state.


I would not argue that one is worse that the other innately, However, I found it hypocritcal to call china an evil monster and never mention that we did it ourselves.

Fine call china evil but 'fess up to your own sins as well.

the jews were victims for centuries if the zionist lobby got them a "homeland" fine

BUT what I find distastful is the fact of crying victim ( they were) and then committing the same crimes upon others

I hope that makes it clear. Its not if israel should exist as much as the policy it condemned it practices

[Wayfarer]

My encapsuleated view:

The Israelis will never be destroyed or driven out, but they will never have real peace, because the arab/islamic nations around them don't want any coexistance at all, much less a peaceful one.

[Ararax]

i didnt think i even mentioned china, but yes the united states government is not innocent, what i am saying is that no governments are innocent. and thats life cause the palistinians cant claim were innocent cause they would have done the same thing or worse.

[markedel]

Well it's not that simple. Israel was supposed to be a Jewish national home encompassing present day Israel and Jordan, overseen by the British for a limited time following World War I. The palestinains kept on killing Jewish civilians, and the British need ing oil gave Jordan to the Hashemites, and stopped Jewish immigration for 10 years, then after the the holocaust the UN decided to split the remains of the mandate between a Jewish and Arab state. The arabs rejected the deal and lost the war.

As for occupation being worse then the holocaust, then all I can say is you know precious little about the holocaust. The palestinians live horribly, and Israel should have done more when it could (it should do more for its arab citizens too). That being said the refugee camps were created by Jordan, Syria and Egypt, and unlike Israel when they occupied said territories they killed all the Jews left over, destroyed the Jewish quarters of Jerusalem and Hebron, and didn't let anyone visit for 20 years. And the palestinians lived just as badly. Now that doesn't make Sharon's policies right, but they are ruthlessly pragmatic, and I guess that's what the Israeli electorate wants.

As for what Israel is-its a refuge for Jews like me if things get sour (as unfourtunetly they tend to do, though I hope they don't) Its also the Jewish homeland, and no reason why we can't run the place.

I agree with Wayfarer over the general situation with the caveat that Israel is small and fragile and the arbs aren't. In a slugout they win.

[Wayfarer]

Three words:

Six Day War.

[jerseydevil]

Afro-Elf - I agree with most things you've said but the comment about the US versus China. I know that China does NOT allow it's citizens to show - let alone make movies about Tianimin Square. There are tons of movies that were made and are shown through out the US about Kent State.

Right now I think that both Israel and Palestine are in the wrong. I don't really think either side is ready for peace. I don't think the entire Middle East is ready for peace. If they didn't have an outside force to blame their problems on then the citizens would have to look at their leadership as the problem. Everyone knows that their government isn't going to let that happen.

Bin Ladin was (is) sitting on 300 million dollars and blaming all the Middle East problems on the United States. Why didn't he use some of that money to build schools (and not fantatic recruitment schools either), hospitals, businesses or other infastructure . The reason is simple - educated people fight for their rights and are harder to control. Information is power - and it's the strongest power anyone can have.

[afro-elf]

As for occupation being worse then the holocaust, then all I can say is you know precious little about the holocaust.

If you think I said that PLEASE point it out to me. If you gathered that from my statement you misread it.

The point was that there is as you said ruthless policies, that brings to mind what the jews faced in WWII. I don't think what i said was EVER mean to imply that they EQUAL.

I will hold my response to some of your other statements until I have more information to work with. which might be difficult because they do suppress info that can make the arabs/islam look bad here.


I think ( hope) israel will stand. ( not that i have an over love of israel but being here its better than a muslim state)

the US does not want the arabs to control the region and the US and Israel are bed- buddies who are locked deep. Unless there is some grand unforseen policy change a long as there is a USA there will be an Israel.

i didnt think i even mentioned china, but yes the united states government is not innocent, what i am saying is that no governments are innocent. and thats life cause the palistinians cant claim were innocent cause they would have done the same thing or worse.

umm... that's my point. There is one arab guy here who said the we ( arabs and jews ) are both dirty bastards who should kill each other off.

One of the few people i've met here with no illusions

[Ararax]

just because both sides are evil dosnt mean that that makes it alright, the key is not to say ok well we should wipe each other out, also the palestininas have flourished under israli rule in the fact that their population has sky rocketed even considering that so many left the west bank and gaza, and as long as the arabs want to take the west banks they have to play with israel

[afro-elf]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
.

Bin Ladin was (is) sitting on 300 million dollars and blaming all the Middle East problems on the United States. Why didn't he use some of that money to build schools (and not fantatic recruitment schools either), hospitals, businesses or other infastructure . The reason is simple - educated people fight for their rights and are harder to control. Information is power - and it's the strongest power anyone can have.

I stand with you there. I said earlier the arabs are too splintered and disoragniszed to be a real thread to israel. they have millions to better themselves and what do they do?

quander it. KSA is a place of the most living breathing hypocrasy I've ever see.