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#21 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: the wild or my home
Posts: 733
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The change that took place on Gollum started to take place on Blilbo. Bilbo says that he feel old and stretched out, like butter spread out over too much bread. Perhaps in time, Bilbo wook be made to look somewhat like Gollum?
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#22 |
Peer of the realm of Sanguine
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Hill, Marlton, NJ
Posts: 798
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True, Bilbo was effected by the ring, probably more than he realized. The ring's effect on Smeagol was diffferent.
The ring's effect on Bilbo was very nearly imperceptable and gradual. In Smeagol's case, it was immediate and profound. He wanted it so badly that he killed for a friend for it. I don't think Bilbo would have turned into anything like Gollum. However, over time, it would have made him wretched and miserable.
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“"I am the friend of bears and the guest of eagles. I am Ringwinner and Luckwearer; and I am Barrel-rider," Fear Complacency! ___________________ Something under the bed is drooling Last edited by barrelrider110 : 04-24-2002 at 10:28 AM. |
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#23 |
Lurker
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Lothlórien
Posts: 3,419
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![]() Smeagol was just bad by nature, so the Ring played on that weakness. Bilbo didn't have that weakness, so the Ring couldn't play on it and had to break him down gradually.
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#24 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 21
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![]() I'd have to agree that the immediate effect on Smeagol from the Ring had more to do with his personality more than the Ring itself. It did take him many years to completely transform into Gollum and since Deagol did not also immediately become violent to get the Ring, it must be assumed that Smeagol was just more susceptible to evil. I certainly agree that any person who comes in contact with the Ring would act differently towards it. When Frodo first knows what the Ring is, he wants to be rid of it while Boromir wants to use it right away against the Dark Lord. This implies that, to a certain extent, the Ring does not effect everyone the same way.
Jennifer |
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#25 |
Enting
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: in my head
Posts: 61
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smegal was weak and didnt have as stronger character wereas frodo sam had been warned bout the ring and hardened their characters against it bilbo was effected differently cos he had a different character
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#26 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Ithilien
Posts: 353
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![]() Gollum was just evil. It wasn't the ring that caused him to kill Deagol, it was greed. He saw the little gold band, thought it was shiny, and wanted it. He was also so evil, he just turned into Gollum.
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#27 |
Lurker
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Lothlórien
Posts: 3,419
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But really, I still think killing your friend is a bit drastic for a natural emotion. And remember, he said, "precious" so the ring must have had something to do with it.
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#28 |
Sapling
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Scotland
Posts: 11
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I think it had a greater affect on Smeagol becuase he had it in his possession for such a long time, and he was also by himself most of that time. Bilbo, Frodo and Sam were always in contact with other people and they did not have it as long as him.
Does anyone agree? |
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#29 |
Sapling
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Scotland
Posts: 12
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Possibly,
but I think Smeagol probably had a little evil in him to begin with to act so violently at the mere sight of the ring. |
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#30 | |
Peer of the realm of Sanguine
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Hill, Marlton, NJ
Posts: 798
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Thank you all for your thoughts.
So far, everyone seems to think that several things are at work: The ring was exerting its power trying to get back to his master and that the ring had an immediate effect on Bilbo as well. [ Quote:
I also think Sméagol was relatively young and immature at the time the ring was found and more susceptable to its power. Nothing about his age is mentioned, but from Gandalf's version of the story Sméagol was nosing around while Déagol was fishing, and not very seriously fishing at that, he allowed a large fish to drag him from the boat. Bilbo on the other hand had come of age, he was 50. Bilbo also had Gandalf with him, which must have helped a great deal. I don't think Sméagol was evil. Bilbo had an inherent goodness in him that Sméagol didn't. A goodness that prevented him from killing Gollum, even after he was in possession of the ring. Even Sméagol showed some fortitude. He successfully kept the ring hidden from its master for many years.... no small feat.
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“"I am the friend of bears and the guest of eagles. I am Ringwinner and Luckwearer; and I am Barrel-rider," Fear Complacency! ___________________ Something under the bed is drooling Last edited by barrelrider110 : 05-13-2002 at 04:20 PM. |
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#31 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
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We are not things. |
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#32 | |
Elven Lady of Speed-posting
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: the cheese state
Posts: 988
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#33 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tring, Herts, England
Posts: 582
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In the book when Frodo is at Rivendell and Bilbo asks to see the Ring, doesn't he see Bilbo as a kind of grasping little creature? I think that if Gandalf hadn't got him to give up the Ring he would have turned into something similar to Gollum.
I don't think Gollum was inherently evil, cos Gandalf says that Deagol's murder haunted him, the murder was very much an impulse thing that he felt terrible about afterwards. Obviously that doesn't excuse him. I love the theory of the Ring using Frodo to hitch a ride to Mordor! ![]() |
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#34 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Truth or Consequences, New Mexico
Posts: 292
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I do think that the ring was infulencing our lovable little Frodo and Sam more than we like to admit. It is easy enough to say "Take it, Gandalf! Take it!" and "I will leave it on the mantle peice," than it really is to do so. Just a thought.
And whe you say corruption, do you mean the esistence of less substancial evil, the dualistic concept of evil rather then evil as a character trait r visa versa? I think i's under debate whether or not "the good Professor," entended (SP?) for an evil personified or corrutpion in the form...um... You know what I'm telkign about??? ![]() ![]() Wait, I don't even know what I'm talkign about! Never mind... |
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#35 | |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,342
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#36 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Dorset
Posts: 608
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The ring had been away from Sauron for a shorter amount of time than it had when it passed to Bilbo and Frodo. Perhaps it's power was stronger and took effect on Smeagol more quickly.
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#37 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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![]() I had posted my conclusions on the Could ANYONE have willingly destroyed the Ring? thread - but I'll quote some of it here.
The Ring I feel worked and twisted what was already in the bearers heart. If you sought power or were evil - it twisted it to it's own end. This is what I wrote in the other thread concerning Smeagol/Gollum... Quote:
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#38 | ||
Peer of the realm of Sanguine
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Hill, Marlton, NJ
Posts: 798
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Quote:
Quote:
I could say that since Sméagol was young, he was weak and the ring had a much more immediate and profound effect on him. However, that's only a hypothesis, and I can't use that to support my argument that Sméagol was not evil, merely weak and ill-equipped to resist the power of the one ring.
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“"I am the friend of bears and the guest of eagles. I am Ringwinner and Luckwearer; and I am Barrel-rider," Fear Complacency! ___________________ Something under the bed is drooling Last edited by barrelrider110 : 05-17-2002 at 08:51 AM. |
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#39 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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![]() I guess you are right. I could have sworn in something I had read concerning Smeagol that it said that no one really liked him before he found the Ring. That he was basically an outcast because he wasn't interested in all the stuff that the "people" around him were interested in. Also - that he was never very nice to begin with.
I can't really look any of this up right now - because all my Tolkien books and references are packed away in storage right now. Hopefully I'll get them during the summer or in October so I can look this up more fully. For whatever reason - the Ring had a strong affect on Smeagol. He was influenced by it without even touching it - enough even to murder his friend for it. No where in LotR that I can remember - other than maybe Boromir - was anyone consumed by the Ring without even touching it.
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#40 | |
Queen of Prolonged, Unexplained Absences
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Texas. 'Nuff said.
Posts: 556
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But there must have been SOME good in him. I believe he was just a bit weak minded. And a habit of jewelry fondling. But on a more serious note
Quote:
That shows that he did once at least take joy in growing things and all that good stuff. And the ring sends out bad karma (sorry for using 70's slang ![]()
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