05-21-2005, 05:03 PM | #21 | |
Elf Lord
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whatever land they acqired by the law should be subjected to legitimate ruler. In this light the Witch-King's claiming of Arnor doesn't look as far fetched moves, but as a purposeful determination to take what is rightfully belongs to him. First-Arnor, then-Gondor... Sauron was quite content with such perspective. |
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05-21-2005, 06:20 PM | #22 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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As for the WK claim to the throne, provided you are right and he WAS a king of Numenor, that didn't give him right to Gondor & Arnor thrones IMHO. |
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05-22-2005, 12:46 AM | #23 | |
Elf Lord
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Why do you think that WK has to have higher moral standarts than his descendant? And, oh, yes, he WAS the king of Numenor! Tar-Ciriatan, in particular. How I came to such conclusion? By painstaking deductions and calculations, that brought my faint suspicions that Tolkien tried to camuflage this fact, but nevertheless left some mileposts leading to it. Last edited by Olmer : 05-22-2005 at 04:08 PM. |
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05-23-2005, 05:08 PM | #24 |
Elf Lord
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EDITED
Last edited by Butterbeer : 05-23-2005 at 05:25 PM. |
05-23-2005, 05:16 PM | #25 |
Hobbit
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Its not fair i like boremer he is one of my favorit caracters. But he is a little mad
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05-23-2005, 11:54 PM | #26 | |
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Don't know how much you've read, but many first-time readers consider all the appendices in the back of LOTR as 'extra' stuff. However - some of us have found them to be filled with hints to all kinds of wonderful things. From there - we can go on to some of the other books. The Boromir discussed in this thread was an ancient ancestor of the Boromir in LOTR proper - and he lived over 500 years before him - Middle-earth speaking, anyway. Hope you'll be able to start following up on that. It gets even more fun.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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05-26-2005, 11:09 AM | #27 | |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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And what would a woman wraith be used for? |
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05-27-2005, 05:29 PM | #28 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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05-31-2005, 04:50 AM | #29 |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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And here is another case when we need an R-rated subforum!
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07-31-2005, 05:16 AM | #30 | ||||||
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Surely if Boromir I the Steward had become a wraith, Tolkien would have mentioned it. He was not, after all, a mere chronicler of the history of Gondor and Arnor, but the maker of a tale, and while a chronicler – such as Barahir, grandson of Faramir (and thus a descendant of Boromir I) – might have had either political or dynastic cause to hide an ill fate befallen his forebear, Tolkien had none.
The dreadful doom Frodo faced after his injury on Weathertop might indeed have been brought about by the Morgul-knife alone, but let us not forget that when he was wounded, he was also wearing the Ring, and as Gandalf described the situation to him, Quote:
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Boromir I was wounded by a Morgul weapon of some sort. Let us suppose it was a Morgul-knife like the one used upon Frodo in Weathertop in every respect. Are we then to believe that the Healers of Gondor knew nothing of these weapons? They had already been at war with Minas Morgul for about 500 years; surely they had seen such grievous injuries before. Moreover, the folk of Gondor had been in communication with their kinsmen in Arnor, which had been at war with Angmar for some 700 years before that, and they, too were subjected to such attacks. It must be likely that some report of these weapons had been carried south, and probably some information on what remedies were required to overcome them. At the very least, Eärnur himself had led the expedition of Gondor to the succor of Arvedui at the end of the kingdom of Arnor/Arthedain, and some information would have returned with that force to the south kingdom. I think that if Boromir the Steward was spared an unlife or undeath of lichdom, we may suppose that either the weapon failed to leave a splinter in his wound, or else, as seems more likely, he was fortunate enough for it to be found and removed, although it shortened his life considerably. It seems to have been the nature of these weapons to shorten life, even if they were properly removed from the injured person. Consider Aragorn’s discussion of Faramir’s injuries in the Houses of Healing: Quote:
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07-31-2005, 06:27 AM | #31 | ||
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In any case, Elendil the Tall ruled Arnor and Gondor as the legitimate heir of Silmariën, daughter and eldest child of Tar-Elendil the fourth king of Númenor, mother of Valandil the first Lord of Andúnië, and the rightful heir of the senior noble house of Númenor second only to the House of Elros (which had long since ceased to be ruled by patrilineal descent, there having been three ruling Queens, a matter of settled Númenórean law that formed the only one part of the basis of Arvedui’s claim on behalf of his marriage to F*riel to claim the throne of Gondor). As such, Elendil could rightly claim descent from the elder line of the descendants of Tar-Elendil, his forefather and namesake, a fact not lost upon the Númenóreans themselves when their island kingdom was still intact. Andúnië was not a royal fiefdom that could be taken away by the ruling house: it represented, in all likelihood, the old line of the chieftains of the First House of the Edain, while the ruling house was properly descended of the old kings of the Third House. (Elrond, by the way, was technically a member of the Third House of the Edain, since he and his brother Elros were the paternal grandsons of Tuor, who upon the death of Turin became de facto leader of the Third House.) The Witch-king had never been King of Númenor: that seems plain enough, since otherwise he would have remained king for the rest of the Second Age, which would presumably been considerably shortened under misrule by a Ringwraith. He had no claim upon the thrones of the Dúnedain kingdoms, either from any prior claim out of Númenor, or from any claim he might have as ruler of the Dúnedain in Middle-earth: he was not their rightful king. He might have wanted to be their king, and he might have (and seems to have) claimed to be their king. He even ruled the territory of Arnor for a while by virtue of conquest (first in Rhudaur, then in Arthedain and Cardolan), but he never ruled the Dúnedain, who were his sworn enemies. The Chieftains of the Dúnedain never relinquished their claim to the throne of Gondor, despite the fact that the Council of Gondor chose Eärnil II to be king instead of Arvedui. They had neither the strength nor the inclination to press such the claim after the fall of the North Kingdom, however. The claim was based not only upon F*riel’s being the only surviving child of Ondohir, but also upon Arvedui’s descent from Isildur, who was the High King of the Númenóreans in Middle-earth and hence senior to the throne of Gondor before the descendents of Meneldil son of Anárion and Isildur's nephew, a seemingly legitimate claim which Mardil the Steward led the Council to flatly reject. Eärnil’s message to Arvedui was softer, and he sent his own son to the succor of Arvedui when he was able, although it was too late to save the smaller kingdom. By the way, it is not often noted, but although the Stewards of Gondor were chosen from the descendants of Húrin of Emyn Arnen, the position of Steward was not hereditary until Mardil’s day. No one but Eärnil had the authority to make such a powerful position hereditary, since it restricted the political freedom of future kings to choose whom they would as Steward. Does anyone smell a backroom deal? A good reason for Denethor II to show a little extra sensitivity to any claim by Aragorn, a.k.a. Thorondor, to the throne his ancestor denied him? A new king might indeed revoke the hereditary status of the position of not only Denethor’s house, but the Stewardship of Denethor himself, a point not lost upon either Faramir or Aragorn: Quote:
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07-31-2005, 03:19 PM | #32 |
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What a great post, Alcuin! Indeed, no "sapling" are you.
As for the theories on the WK identity, a new thread has split from this one, grace to Valandil's timely intervention. http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=12230&page=1 It is in the LOTR Books forum. There you will find Olmer's arguments for his theory. Your theory has been referred to, I believe, if not discussed. Surely, your theory deserves discussing, and you would do well to post it there or in a new thread. The only problem is that Olmer seems to have disappeared. I am very impressed by your idea of a backroom deal between Mardil and Earnil. I believe, nobody has thought about it before. You must be right. Speaking of a similar dark story, I am afraid Mardil was not too eager to dissuade the King Earnur from his visit to Minas Morgul. Mardil's position was already hereditary and Mardil was personally interested in getting rid of the King, especially in such a way that would leave his fate unknown, so no new king could be chosen. Last edited by CrazySquirrel : 07-31-2005 at 03:22 PM. |
08-01-2005, 12:19 AM | #33 | ||
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Still, no matter what the reason for his hereditary position, Denethor II wasn’t at all pleased with the return of Aragorn to Gondor. Tolkien implies in Appendix I that he wasn’t at all displeased when Thorondor left Gondor, and that some observers (Imrahil, his brother-in-law, perhaps?) later believed that Denethor had discovered or somehow determined who Thorondor really was. Quote:
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08-01-2005, 06:58 AM | #34 | ||
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Alcuin, your letter has made me check the Appendices.
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Moreover, there is another possible facet of the story. I remember reading in the "Peoples of ME" that the Stewards were connected by blood ties with the Royal house, though I can't get the quote now. It seems reasonable to suppose that the Stewards were descended from Anarion, but their bloodline was not so pure as that of the Kings, i.e. it included at least one woman. The Kings had to marry their daughters to some nobles in Gondor, and Hurin's house was the noblest of all. But the Stewards could not claim the father-to son (patrilineal) descent required by law. So, by supporting the patrilineal descent over simple promogeniture, Pelendur was able to effectively reject Arvedui's claim, but by doing so, he also cut all future possibilities for HIS OWN line to claim the throne. Indeed, not a single one of the Stewards ever tried to do that. Pelendur must have fully understood the consequences. And the reward for his decision was the hereditary stewardship. As for Mardil's case, it is stated that Mardil was able to dissuade King Earnur from accepting the Witch-King's challenge in 2043. Probably he still hoped the King would marry and get a heir. Why didn't Mardil stop the King in 2050? Because, I think, Mardil has had enough time to ponder on the situation in those 7 years. The King had no heirs, not was he likely to get any. So what would have happened after his natural death? A strife, most probably, with different relatives warring over the throne, Castamir's heirs probably intervening, Arvedui's children reentering their claim and so on. Castamir's heirs and Arvedui's children would have had the rightful claims by the patrilineal law. What will be the fate of the realm and of the Stewards? Quite a bleak perspective, either war or passing of the throne to the North line. Arvedui's children were likely to retract the hereditary Stewardship in vengeance for Pelendur's decision. (Actually this decision proved to be fatal for Arvedui and the North Kingdom) To avoid all this, Earnur's MIA was a perfect solution. No one had seen the King die, so Steward ruled rightfully "until the King returns". At first this meant only "Until Earnur returns", then the phrase has become more and more otherwordly. |
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08-01-2005, 04:47 PM | #35 |
Elf Lord
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I suspect denethor did not speak as did the vast majority of Gondorians when he decried the lineage of the northern line.
Where do Mooters stand on this? I always had the impression Tolkien was kinda supporting the north (as do i) and that the lineage was actually ( although the Southern realm of gondor was by far the larger and more powerful) the most pure and noble ... the North Kindom of Arnor was of course originally THE main Numenorean pinnacle... we can understand why at times they rejected the claims of the North, but when Aragorn returns as himself, the true father to son decendent of Elendil there is no dispute. (of course he and his fellowship have just defeated sauron against all odds and he has the support of all key figures at this time anyway) Interesting that despite some initial mis-givings at the Council of Elrond, Boromir (II) took to Aragorn and accepted him as Leader and as the heir of kings ... "Go to Minas Tirith and save my people ..." (being but one) Wonder what Valandil says? Has anyone read his letters of Firiel? Well worth checking out and his later writings, 'Tales of Nolduryon' too. (of course as CS might tell you, in terms of fellowships and the effects of morgul blades ... theres some intersting stuff in the fellowship of the ringwraiths RPG also ...) Last edited by Butterbeer : 08-01-2005 at 04:50 PM. |
08-01-2005, 04:57 PM | #36 |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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Well, BB, instead of our Fellowship promotion, you better tell what is your opinion on the 1. Possibility of a backdoor deal between Pelendur and Earnil and 2. Possibility of Mardil the Steward deliberately sending The Last King Earnur to his death in Morgul.
BTW, what do you think has happened in Morgul, BB? |
08-01-2005, 05:15 PM | #37 |
Elf Lord
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Inside knowledge my dear CS ...couldn't possibly reveal it.
Possibility of Mardil the Steward deliberately sending The Last King Earnur to his death in Morgul: Not for me this one. ... er.. i'd actually have to read the whole thread, but i'd need some serious convincing. and that wasn't promotion: just an apt reference! ... very well written post though, i must say. |
09-13-2005, 09:53 AM | #38 |
Hobbit
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So, Boromir I received a Morgul-wound and lived for 14 years? How was that possible? Frodo was expected to die within a few days after his wound! Did Boromir get medical (magical) help? And from whom? Aragorn and Glorfindel were both unable to heal Frodo, only Elrond was capable of it.
Does it Actualy say anywhere that it was Elrond who healed Frodo or do we all just asume it was him? All we know is that he got taken back to Rivendale and was healed. |
09-13-2005, 11:53 AM | #39 |
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A shard of the blade broke off when WK stabbed Frodo. I assume that it didn't happen in this case, and that he was stabbed, but no shard broke off.
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09-13-2005, 12:26 PM | #40 |
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I interpreted that to mean that Boromir the Steward was stabbed by a Morgul knife, he did suffer whatever the wound delivered, which quite possibly included a shard of the knife, just as Frodo did. Boromir’s splinter was removed, but he lived thereafter in pain, his physical stamina was seriously reduced, and he died young (at that time) for a member of the House of Húrin (of Gondor).
The splinter from the Morgul knife was not necessarily fatal if it could be removed. Aragorn, Glorfindel, Gandalf, and Elrond were all aware of this, probably from their experiences in the wars between Angmar and the Dúnedain of Arnor. It is likely that the Dúnedain of Gondor were aware of it, too, even though their ability to deal with such weapons might have been considerably less than that in the North. And yes, Gandalf explicitly says that Elrond found the splinter and removed it. Last edited by Alcuin : 09-13-2005 at 12:27 PM. |
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