High Kings of the Noldor

[Sister Golden Hair]

Another example of a High-king in Beleriand was your pal, Elu Thingol. He claimed to be High King of Beleriand, even over those Elves and Elven-kings not of the Sindar. Yet Finrod, Thingol's grand-nephew, was the only Ñoldorin King who heeded this.

Nolendil, this makes me want to throw up.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I think you are thinking of Finrod walking with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.

Now where was that quote about Formenos walking with his second cousin Firimar beneath the trees in Erchamion?

[Lefty Scaevola]

I believe "High" King was used only in Middle Earth. It was irrelevant in Aman where there was only one king at time. In Beleriand and later Middle Earth, there were multiple kingdoms fuled by Nordorin princes, with them acknowleging the High King as overlord. As for why Earendil and Elrond was bypassed, and the High Kingship ended while Elrond yet survived, the two most likely theories are
1. They did not count distaff (descended through female) heirs,
2. His Atani descent.

Note also that for a space of ten years (Icannot recall if that is years of the sun or valinorian years) when Finwe shared exile with Feanaro in Formenos, NoloFinwe was King of the Noldor in Aman.

One of the intriging questions is Gildor Inglorion's ancestry. Inglorion means scio of Inglor; Inglor being one of the many names for Findarato. He alos says he is of "the Golden House of Finrod. Finrod is said to have had no children in Beleriand, but there is no such exclusionary statment for after Finrod was reincarnated in Aman. Elves were not allowed to go from Aman to Middle earth after "the Change of the World" when numenor was sunk, but there is no hard exclusion between the War of Wrath and then. Was Gildor then a descendant of Finrod and thus a clear claiment to High King of the Noldor (such as was left) in Middle earth?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
I believe "High" King was used only in Middle Earth. It was irrelevant in Aman where there was only one king at time. In Beleriand and later Middle Earth, there were multiple kingdoms fuled by Nordorin princes, with them acknowleging the High King as overlord. As for why Earendil and Elrond was bypassed, and the High Kingship ended while Elrond yet survived, the two most likely theories are
1. They did not count distaff (descended through female) heirs,
2. His Atani descent.

Note also that for a space of ten years (Icannot recall if that is years of the sun or valinorian years) when Finwe shared exile with Feanaro in Formenos, NoloFinwe was King of the Noldor in Aman.

One of the intriging questions is Gildor Inglorion's ancestry. Inglorion means scio of Inglor; Inglor being one of the many names for Findarato. He alos says he is of "the Golden House of Finrod. Finrod is said to have had no children in Beleriand, but there is no such exclusionary statment for after Finrod was reincarnated in Aman. Elves were not allowed to go from Aman to Middle earth after "the Change of the World" when numenor was sunk, but there is no hard exclusion between the War of Wrath and then. Was Gildor then a descendant of Finrod and thus a clear claiment to High King of the Noldor (such as was left) in Middle earth?

This is a tough one. Inglor was originally Finrod Felagund. Finrod had no wife or children. However, Finrod after death returns to Valinor and is reunited with Amarie. Gildor Inglorion has that name attached to him (Inglor) and means something like the son of Finrod. Not sure. He would have had to come to Middle-earth sometime in the Second Age, but when he identifies himself to Frodo and company, he says he is an Exile. This is somewhat inconsistant. If this is the case, then he would have had to cross the ice with the rest of the exiles I would think.

[Rían]

Yes, Gildor is one of those puzzling loose ends. If only Tolkien lived to be 1000 and had no responsibilities except writing! Can you imagine his to-do list for M.E.? So many details to cross-check and tie in! Another loose end I wish he had time to tidy up is the Galadriel/Celeborn story - there were lots of different versions he had floating around in notes as to ancestry, how they got to M.E., etc.

[Artanis]

I'm glad he did not live for 1000 years , if Tolkien indeed had settled it all, it wouldn't be anything left for us to discuss, or to ponder on. I rather like the loose ends of some of his writings. Like someone (BoP?) said in another thread, the unfinishedness makes the myths and stories and the world they are emerged from seem more real.

This is a tough one. Inglor was originally Finrod Felagund. Finrod had no wife or children. However, Finrod after death returns to Valinor and is reunited with Amarie. Gildor Inglorion has that name attached to him (Inglor) and means something like the son of Finrod. Not sure. He would have had to come to Middle-earth sometime in the Second Age, but when he identifies himself to Frodo and company, he says he is an Exile. This is somewhat inconsistant. If this is the case, then he would have had to cross the ice with the rest of the exiles I would think.

You're right SGH, it is contradictory, and up till now it has totally escaped me. Thank you Lefty S! Unfortunately I can't think of any sensible solution to this riddle. If he indeed was a descendant of Finrod, why do you think he didn't claim kingship? Nothing much left to be king of, perhaps, but still.

[Lefty Scaevola]

One possiblity is a different sense of the word exile. legaly no Nolda except Artanis/Newende/Alatarial/Galadriel was under ban of exile at the time of Gildor's statment, so he could not mean it in that sense, likewise he may not have meant it to mean he had ben one of the Noldor who went into exile at the first age. He may have meant it in the the sense that he was in a self imposed sabbatical or pilgramage away from his home, which would be cosistant with being in a wandering company, rather than a settled home.
The other possibility is, of course, that it is a simple continuity error.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
One possiblity is a different sense of the word exile. legaly no Nolda except Artanis/Newende/Alatarial/Galadriel was under ban of exile at the time of Gildor's statment, so he could not mean it in that sense, likewise he may not have meant it to mean he had ben one of the Noldor who went into exile at the first age. He may have meant it in the the sense that he was in a self imposed sabbatical or pilgramage away from his home, which would be cosistant with being in a wandering company, rather than a settled home.

Could it be the Valar had sent him and his companions to ME, and that their meeting with Frodo at the crucial moment wasnt such a coincidence as it appeared to be. Just a sudden thought.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Glorfindal was being rewitten into being one of the "messengers" sent from Aman to contest Sauron's power (the Istari were likewise such messengers). Gildor could likewise have been such, but in that case he likely would have been more active in aiding Frodo.

Aside: I think I still have some distant cousins in Oslo, the Moursund family.

Barrett the Bloodaxe Moursund

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Barrett the Bloodaxe Moursund

Bloodaxe?
There once was a Norwegian king called Bloodaxe (directly translated): Eirik Blodøks. He lived from (approx) 895 to 954.
Apart from this, there are at least 13 Moursunds in the Oslo region.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Alhtough not quite Nodorin royalty, one of my ancestors is semi-legendary. Rochansen Falconer Moursund, supposed to have lived to 120 years old and been mayor of Trondheim for 70 years. Most likely a confounding of two persons, such as a man and his grandson with the same name. This "fact" may be error form 400 years ago, even with written records. This illustrates how legends can be created, In JRRT's Middle Earth, with over 7000 years of history since the return of the Noldor, and much of it not written until Bilbo, but kept in oral tradition, even with some imortal memories, tremendous amounts are lost, and much is altered. This is particularly so when the oral tradition is mostly epics lays and othe poems, which are supposed to be embelished, and are histoires per se.

Aside: Moursund (Maursund, alternative spelling?) means seawall, does it not?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
One possiblity is a different sense of the word exile. legaly no Nolda except Artanis/Newende/Alatarial/Galadriel was under ban of exile at the time of Gildor's statment, so he could not mean it in that sense, likewise he may not have meant it to mean he had ben one of the Noldor who went into exile at the first age. He may have meant it in the the sense that he was in a self imposed sabbatical or pilgramage away from his home, which would be cosistant with being in a wandering company, rather than a settled home.
The other possibility is, of course, that it is a simple continuity error.

This thought occured to me. I have noticed that Tolkien uses words like exile in different ways. I would suggest that if when Gildor refers to himself and his company as exiles that if the first letter is capitalized, then he is refering to the Exiles of Aman. If not, then he may be of an exiled clan in Middle-earth. I don't have the text of LotRs to verify my theory.

[Artanis]

In the book Gildor says "We are Exiles" with a capital e.

[Ñólendil]

Michael Martinez has a very good theory on Gildor Inglorion: Finrod, after having been returned to life in Aman, wedded Amárië of the Vanyar, and Inglor is descended from him in some way (a son or grandson). Inglor journeyed to Middle-earth some time and stayed there, with Exiles of his kindred, and his son was Gildor. Then it would make perfect sense for Gildor to be Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finarfin.

SGH, Gildor never says "I am an exile", he says "We are exiles". Maybe he didn't want to single himself out as the only one who wasn't.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
Michael Martinez has a very good theory on Gildor Inglorion: Finrod, after having been returned to life in Aman, wedded Amárië of the Vanyar, and Inglor is descended from him in some way (a son or grandson). Inglor journeyed to Middle-earth some time and stayed there, with Exiles of his kindred, and his son was Gildor. Then it would make perfect sense for Gildor to be Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finarfin.

SGH, Gildor never says "I am an exile", he says "We are exiles". Maybe he didn't want to single himself out as the only one who wasn't.

Nolendil, I am not implying that he used the word Exile as an individual reference. He does state that they are Exiles saying "we" that would include him.

[Ñólendil]

To which I responded: "maybe he didn't want to single himself out".

Maybe Gildor or his father came to Middle-earth in some defiance of the Valar themselves, or even were banished for some reason.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
To which I responded: "maybe he didn't want to single himself out".

Maybe Gildor or his father came to Middle-earth in some defiance of the Valar themselves, or even were banished for some reason.

Well maybe, but I don't think Tolkien used the word Exile so loosely. Exiles were a specific group in that story, and I think always refering to the Noldor that left Aman in the First Age.

[Dain]

Title of the head of the House of Finwe in Middle Earth in his role of overlord of the Noldorin realms. The first overlord might have been Feanor, but his early death prevented him from claiming that authority. Fingolfin was recognised as High King from the First Age 1 until his death in 455, and his son Fingon after him. At Fingons death in 473 the title passed to his brother Turgon of Gondolin, who of course did not exercise any authority outside his Hidden Kingdom. When Turgon died in 511 the Kingship passed to Fingon's son Gil-galad, who remained High King until his death in the Second Age 3441, at which time no heirs of the House of Feanor or Fingolfin remained in Middle Earth.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Dain
Title of the head of the House of Finwe in Middle Earth in his role of overlord of the Noldorin realms. The first overlord might have been Feanor, but his early death prevented him from claiming that authority. Fingolfin was recognised as High King from the First Age 1 until his death in 455, and his son Fingon after him. At Fingons death in 473 the title passed to his brother Turgon of Gondolin, who of course did not exercise any authority outside his Hidden Kingdom. When Turgon died in 511 the Kingship passed to Fingon's son Gil-galad, who remained High King until his death in the Second Age 3441, at which time no heirs of the House of Feanor or Fingolfin remained in Middle Earth.

Just a little nitpicking here. Tolkien changed the parentage of Gil-galad from Fingon being his father to Orodreth being his father, and Orodreth was no longer the brother of Galdriel and Finrod, but became the son of Angrod. Pretty confusing huh?

[Dain]

Sister Golden Hair

Please tell me in which book Tolkien changed the parentage of Gil-galad from Fingon to Oredreth, because all the books i have dont mention this.