03-14-2009, 04:54 AM | #21 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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I think you should keep in mind that while loremasters of Men knew the legend of Sauron's Rings, Frodo and Bilbo with all their interest in history had no idea about the Rings before Gandalf told them.
Lowlife like Ferny and the Isengarder most likely heard nothing at all about the matter - not even a fairy-tale. So if Saruman or the nazgul told the Isengarder that a hobbit had a little ring that could make him invisible, the spy would never be able to figure out the importance of the item. Or the spies could have been told that this particular hobbit had an ability to turn invisible, that's why he was wanted in Mordor. I agree with Alcuin that there was some sort of ring-specific "ping" command the Ring responded to as opposed to general unfocused malice felt in the room. Note that the Ring "asked to be put on" not always when Frodo was in danger or faced a powerful evil creature. Let us go quickly over LOTR: 1. Hobbiton: Khamul talks with the Gaffer, Frodo eavesdrops - no urge to put on the Ring. ( Khamul is unaware of Frodo, no Ping command) 2. On the Stock-Road: Khamul passes by, Frodo feels a desire to put on the Ring. (Ping command by Khamul) 3. At night Khamul approaches sniffing -the desire to put on the Ring is much stronger.(Ping command by Khamul) 4. They see a nazgul at the top of the green bank and flee - no urge to put on the Ring. (No Ping command, because even if Khamul sees them he cannot follow). 5. At the Ferry - no desire to put on the Ring. (Same reason as above). 6. Old Man Willow - no desire to put on the Ring. (OMW knows no Ping, though his malice is strongly felt.) 7. Barrow-Wight - very strong desire to put on the Ring, almost irresisible.(Likely the WK taught the Wights the Ping command). 8. Common room in Bree - The Ring "puts itself on". (Ping coming either from the nazgul directly or via the Isengarder). 9. Weathertop - Frodo puts the Ring on. (Ping by the Witch-King) 10. At the Ford - no desire to put the Ring on. (Nazgul don't need Ping, they see the wraithy-Frodo well enough). 11. At Caradras - no desire to put the Ring on 12. Werewolves - no desire to put the Ring on 13. The Watcher - no desire to put the Ring on 14. Fight in Mazarbul chamber - - no desire to put the Ring on 15. The Balrog - - no desire to put the Ring on. (Interesting: here the external evil will must be very strong, but the Ring doesn't react.) It seems obvious that the creatures of Moria didn't know the Ping command. 16. The ambush at Sarn-Gebir, a nazgul flies overhead - - no desire to put the Ring on (here likely the nazgul had no time to issue the Ping command, before Legolas shot his mount). 17. At Amon-Hen, Frodo felt no desire to put on the Ring, he only did it to escape from Baromir. 18. Emin Muil: Nazgul flies overhead, lightning, Frodo temporary looses sight, but feels no desire to put on the Ring (no Ping, as the nazgul in unaware of him). 19. Emin Muil: Gollum follows, the hobbits are aware of him and apprehensive, but Frodo feels no desire to put on the Ring (Gollum knows no Ping and the Ring doesn't want him anyway) 20. Approaches to Mordor - several nazgul overhead, but unaware of the hobbits. (No Ping). 21. Morgul Vale. The WK feels the Ring and issues a powerful "Ping". The Ring replies. Frodo feels possessed, and only the Phial saves him from revealing himself. 22. Sam in Cirith Ungol facing orcs. No desire to use the Ring. 22. All these cases in Mordor when hobbits hide and orcs seek them. No desire to use the Ring (Orcs use no Ping). So, basically, the Ring "asks to be put on" only in connection with the nazgul, or creatures in league with them (Barrow-Wights), but not with even more powerful unrelated evil creatures like the Balrog or the Watcher. Last edited by Gordis : 03-14-2009 at 05:00 AM. |
03-15-2009, 09:14 AM | #22 | ||
Hobbit
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a) Frodo felt the urge to put the Ring on b) it was caused by something inside the room c) it was not the Ring itself - I deem, because it would be sort of self-reflection, the Ring would be "pinging" itself, which I just find illogical given the way the situation is portrayed. There is a "third party" besides Frodo and the Ring. C causes A to but B on. d) there was no Nazgul in the room. Ergo, who remains? We need somebody or something in the room that calls the Ring. It's neither Nazgul, for they are outside, nor the Ring itself. Of course it was not Butterbur, nor Sam, nor Pippin, nor Strider, nor any of the more or less drunk Breelanders. The only one who was in the room and wanted the Ring to manifest itself was Ferny. (We can argue how much he knew, whether he knew consciously what he was looking for or whether he was just hoping for something enough attention-bringing to happen, but the basic idea is that he was looking for Frodo.) So, it was him who the Ring had reacted to. To illustrate my explanation even better, I will use what Gordis posted now. I think there is one thing people on this thread have assumed so easily - this "pinging" thing. What exactly do we mean by that? I do not think it was necessary a spell or something of that sort. It was simply a focus of will, something that made the Ring manifest itself. But most of all, the way I am understanding it, pinging was not an action - i.e. not a certain pattern one has to do to "ping" the Ring - but a reaction. In other words: it's not that muttering "by Sauron, Lord of Mordor, wherever thou art, manifest yourself, O Ring of Power" would be the "pinging", but that anything that causes the Ring to manifest itself can be called "pinging". Is it clear what I have in mind? Based on the evidence of Ring manifesting itself in Tolkien's books (you can compare it to Gordis' list in the last post), from Legatepedia, the definition of "pinging" would be: "Any action of will by a subject, based on its conscious or subconscious wish to look for the Ring, which causes the Ring to respond, leading to an attempt of the bearer of the Ring to put the Ring on." So, this, therefore, goes for Ferny as well. And if we were to assume that the Ring works this way, I can use modified Gordis' list to check. To make it easier to compare, I am dividing my former "definition" of Pinging into paraghraphs, so that we can verify whether they all were fulfilled: Pinging is a) an action of will b) by a subject c) based on conscious or subconscious wish to look for the Ring d) causing the Ring to respond e) leading to an attempt of the bearer to put the Ring on. Quote:
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03-15-2009, 09:34 AM | #23 | |
Elf Lord
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Regarding b, we don't know that the command came from inside the room, only that Frodo felt like that was probably the case. The implication of this feeling being stated twice in the text could simply mean the command came from close by...just outside for instance. For c, we don't know that the Ring can't make it's wearer want to put it on; in fact many of us strongly suspect that it can embrace opportunities, whether "pinged" or not. And though it is unlikely that a Nazgul was in the room, we don't know that d is true for a fact; and in light of the uncertainty regarding b, it doesn't really matter.
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03-15-2009, 10:39 AM | #24 | |
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03-15-2009, 11:54 PM | #25 | ||||||||
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But there is another way to read this sentence. Tolkien is sparse with commas (see the excellent book, Eats, Shoots & Leaves, for a discussion of punctilious punctuation), so it is not possible to determine whether he meant “from outside Frodo’s will,” or Quote:
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The Ring is a thing, and an appropriate focus for such a “temptation”. Clearly Frodo recognized this as a “temptation”, but having never before felt such an urge, and unfamiliar with the operation and powers of the Ring, he is far less likely to locate the source of the temptation than near the end of his quest, or after his encounter with Galadriel and her Mirror. After the accident, the narration (Frodo would be the putative narrator with Tolkien his “translator”) says Quote:
You may well assert that Ferny, who “would sell anything to anybody; or make mischief for amusement,” took gold or was otherwise convinced or coerced into allowing himself to be a focus for whatever necromancy the Nazgûl wove: I won’t dispute that. To assert that Ferny himself, or the Southerner, were the source of the Ring’s tempting Frodo to put it on is too far for me: Sauron would not trust any others but his Nazgûl, who had no will in the matter, to hunt for the Ring; and the Elves kept secret what they knew as best they could, even through the Council of Elrond when matters were most critical. How then do you propose that the Nazgûl, however befuddled or incompetent it might be (and there are threads on that subject at Entmoot), would reveal to Bill Ferny, the local ne’er-d-well, and a spy from Saruman, known traitor to Sauron, that they must concentrate all their little Mortal wills on awakening the Great Dingus and Terror of All Middle-earth? That it was “but a trifle Sauron fancies”? Sauron might well have learned from his spies that Thorin & Company knew about Bilbo’s magic ring (remember, he himself had told them about it), so mentioning it to Dain Ironfoot might not have been so great a risk – but to tell Ferny and a turncoat, two unreliable louts? That’s too much for me. Here’s my objection to your argument: Quote:
It has been noted before that Tolkien did not make his characters omniscient: they made errors and sometimes conveyed information they believed true although it was in fact incorrect. Frodo might truthfully say, “I felt as if the temptation to put on the Ring came from within the room.” That does not mean that Frodo’s assessment at that time was correct, only that his recollection was. Afterward, Frodo “wondered if the Ring itself …. had tried to reveal itself in response to some wish or command that was felt in the room.” It is a much finer distinction to say that Frodo’s temptation was “felt in the room,” and gives away that he was no longer sure the source of the “wish or command” was “in” the room. Quote:
What are our choices here?
The simplest explanation is that the Nazgûl on the other side of the street was summoning the Ring to reveal itself, just as Khamûl twice called upon it to reveal itself in the Woody End, and the Nazgûl on Weathertop caused it to reveal itself and its bearer on Weathertop. The walls of the Prancing Pony must be seen as no barrier to the summons; and we might well ask, why should they be? -|-(Added later) It might be worth noting that in War of the Ring, “VIII Kirith Ungol”, when Sam first puts on the Ring, he can see through the rocks of the pass of Cirith Ungol. (Page 190 in the paperback.) I think Tolkien had a clear idea that barriers in normal world were at least perceived differently in the wraith world, just as Frodo could see the “real” clothing of the Ringwraiths rather than their normal clothes. In his essay “The Palant*ri” in Unfinished Tales, he says that Quote:
I think any idea that the walls of the Prancing Pony were a barrier to whatever summons or “ping” issued by the Nazgûl to the Ring cannot be substantiated in the rest of Tolkien’s work. Last edited by Alcuin : 03-16-2009 at 12:38 AM. |
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03-16-2009, 04:06 AM | #26 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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I think you all forget an important aspect of Arda magick - most of it was done by words. Words of a song, words of a spell, words of Command, words engraved on BD swords, Morgul daggers, Andurils and Glamdrings etc.
Why would the Ring be different? It had a spell written on it. We know that at the One's forging Sauron uttered the words: "Ash nazg etc.", that must have been indispensable for binding the other Rings. But for the necessity to utter this spell, unfortunately overheard by the Elves of Eregion, Sauron's original plan to enslave the Elves might have worked. So it stands to reason that to really use the Ring, its wielder had to command the Ring not only by his will, not only had to wish to do something, but he had to use appropriate worded commands as well. That's why perhaps there is all this talk that the wannabe Ringlord like Gandalf or Saruman had to have enough time to learn to use the Ring, before being able to use its full potential and try to confront Sauron. Likely the new ringlord had to find the right words of Command for the Ring. I don't see why "Ping" we are talking about would be different, why it has to be a "wish" or "evil will" but not some specific words. Much more likely the Ping was a SPELL - a low-level command. The Ring was sure to "hear it" and could respond, if It so wished, but of course It was not compelled to respond as the spell-caster had no authority over It.. In this case, if we indeed accept that "suggestion" came from INSIDE the room, why not consider the possibility that the Southerner muttered the Pinging spell, taught by the Nazgul, at the right moment? The Nazgul had no need to explain to the spies the WHY of it. He had no need to tell them about the existence of the Ring, he had no need to translate the spell. He could simply order the Isengarder (or Ferny) to mutter "Ash nazg gimbat" or some other words in the High Black Tongue and the ruffians would never be the wiser. I don't think, Legate, the spell was as straightforward as "by Sauron, Lord of Mordor, wherever thou art, manifest yourself, O Ring of Power". Certainly it was not in the Common tongue but in the Black tongue - gibberish to the uneducated ruffians. Alternatively, of course, the nazgul could have "pinged" the Ring himself from outside, as Alcuin suggests. But I highly doubt that the nazgul could see through walls, or that the shutters of the Common Room were left open. Remember Merry's tale? he was standing under the lantern, but he doesn't mention the windows of the Common room as another source of light. I believe the Nazgul hanging opposite the inn couldn't see the happenings in the Common Room. Then how could he choose the right moment for the Ping? He couldn't know that the hobbit was at the moment the center of attention in a crowded room. Because if Frodo were sitting quietly in a dark corner, or was not in the common room at all no one would likely notice he had disappeared for a while. As it was, the moment was chosen perfectly. This perfect timing, with Frodo distracted and all eyes on him, could only be achieved by somebody inside the room. Quote:
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03-16-2009, 12:18 PM | #27 |
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I dislike the term 'ping' as applied to the One Ring, but that doesn't mean that there was no way for Sauron's servants to make the Ring aware of their proximity. I have long been curious about why the Black Speech verse was engraved upon the Ring, as well as how Cerebrimbor 'became aware' of Sauron at the moment he uttered these words. Why not assume that "Ash nazgd..." was the spell that Sauron put upon the One that gave it power over the other Rings of Power? Celebrimbor held the Three, and perhaps they made him aware just as they were bound by the spell. Could the uttering of that spell by the Nazgul make it aware of them?
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03-16-2009, 04:10 PM | #28 |
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Well, I have technically said all my points already and I am not going to repeat them here anymore. I disagree with any seemingly far-fetched and, in my opinion, too complicated constructions, while the solution is simple and present: Frodo feels it coming "...from someone or something in the room", so why should we think it was not IN the room. Any Nazgul outside thus falls away, and since we seem to more or less agree that a Nazgul in the common room seems pretty nonsensish, the only explanation is good old Ferny. And his will.
As for Gordis' note about spells, point taken, however, we have to consider few things. First, there was no real "magic" in Middle-Earth, not in the way we know it from Dungeons&Dragons and similar things, although probably Sauron's sorcery was closer to that - but the "real", Elvish "magic" was different. Also, it's not true that always it was dependant on words. The WK did not say anything when "pinging" the Ring in Imlad Morgul, neither did Khamul in the Greenhill county. Just the focused will, and this was, I believe, also the case of Ferny. (And, of course, Gordis, my example with "by Sauron, Lord of Mordor, wherever thou art, manifest yourself, O Ring of Power" was translated into Westron But I don't think it was either "hughazh shagammu Mordor, uzgush shagbagur, Ash Nazg shamgadbug!" nor anything similar ) |
03-16-2009, 05:11 PM | #29 | ||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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And the "will" part -I don't think the ruffians had any will worth speaking about. But we have been over it already. Quote:
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03-17-2009, 07:46 AM | #30 | ||
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03-17-2009, 08:43 AM | #31 | |
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03-17-2009, 11:22 AM | #32 | |
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Now just, why did it want to show itself to some ruffians, then? I guess the answer is clear: in Middle-Earth, you are very often able to discern who is good and who is bad, on some basic level, and the maliciousness was quite clear in Ferny. I believe the Ring reacted to the will to find it, like I said, and this will was connected to his evil nature. (Another objection to the cases you name was also mentioned above: the Balrog did NOT want to FIND the Ring. It had no will - ha, the magic word! - to find it. Ferny and the Isengarder did.) Moreover, I believe the Ring was aware that the Nazgul are trying to find it. Of course. Even if it did not "know" that they were very close (in Bree itself, actually!), it happened in a few recent days that the Nazgul and the Ring almost "met", and the Ring was being called by the Nazgul... it was obvious that anybody looking for the Ring would be a "friend" who might bring it closer to its Master. And I believe Ferny&co.'s thoughts were indeed so transparent (the desire, combined with the greed or whatever lead them to help the Riders) that the Ring would have known why the person is wishing it to manifest. |
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03-17-2009, 12:20 PM | #33 |
Elf Lord
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I'm not so much disagreeing with any particular conclusions as with the method of arriving there.
Probably + Probably != Definitely and the more "probablys" that are added to the mix, the less definite the conclusion must be. The command probably came from within the room because the Professor brings up Frodo's feeling that it did not once, but twice. There was probably not a Nazgul in the room for the reasons already discussed in this thread. It probably wasn't solely an act of the Ring, because the Ring had usually only acted that way in other situations where there was someone seeking it actively. We have too many probablys and not enough definites to come to a firm conclusion, IMO. The best we can do is compare liklihoods.
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03-17-2009, 02:14 PM | #34 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Of course we are comparing likelihoods... Unless someone finds a Tolkien manuscript with the exact spell used by the nazgul
But speculating is 1. fun 2. it leads to some probable conclusions. If everything else is eliminated as improbable... |
03-18-2009, 10:04 AM | #35 |
Elf Lord
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I like these sorts of threads, too, until someone decides someone else is wrong or that someone else is clearly right, when there is no clear consensus on the matter. Just trying to nip a little dogmatism I observed in the bud, that's all.
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03-18-2009, 01:59 PM | #36 | |||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Here you attribute to the Ring a strong mind-reading ability. Not impossible, no, but less likely, IMO than to suppose that a simple spell was used. Come on, even the dumbest Men or Orcs could learn a few words... |
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03-18-2009, 08:06 PM | #37 | ||||||||
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03-19-2009, 04:13 AM | #38 | ||||
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Practically, what "ring-ping" is? Not a command, certainly. It is not like breaking city Gates or lighting the end of your staff... It is simply words, or mind message, to attract the ring's attention, like saying to it: "I work for Sauron, please reveal Yourself", and what's more proving it, because you use the password, the right spell known to the Ring. |
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03-20-2009, 05:29 PM | #39 | |||
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03-21-2009, 01:25 AM | #40 |
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