10-26-2003, 10:30 AM | #21 |
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My personal opinion on the fighting at Helms Deep is that it was way overdone. The dragged out preparation and battle made TTT almost boring to me. I have not watched it nearly as much as I have watched FoTR. When I get the XEd, I will be happy to skip a lot of the Helms Deep stuff. Too bad that it seems to be at least half of the movie!
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10-26-2003, 10:43 AM | #22 |
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Well, lets look at some tolkien history, shall we?
Tolkien once said he did NOT want LotR made into films. Probably so because it was impossible at that time, and because he was afraid of its bieng mis interpreted. Lizra Yeah, Helms Deep took up way to much space. PJ had room for more stuff, but instead he extends a small battle.
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10-26-2003, 10:58 AM | #23 | |
im quite stupid
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10-26-2003, 11:03 AM | #24 |
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Well thats what I really meant by 'taking up to much space'. the whole preperation and so on. the actual battle did not take to much space. But I count the preperation as part of the whole.
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10-26-2003, 11:38 AM | #25 | |
im quite stupid
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10-26-2003, 11:46 AM | #26 | |
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Saruman was much more than a skilled orator who influenced people by the power of his persuasive arguements. As the greatest of the Maiar, he was clearly capable of many things -- including breeding the uruks and developing his own ringcraft. Based on the actual text, Jackson's interpretation of Theoden's possession is every bit as valid as squinteyedsoutherner's opinion. |
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10-26-2003, 11:56 AM | #27 | |
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I think this is really a point hats really rather to silly to critize PJ on mainlybecause its just one of those moments in the book which is open to interpritation
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10-26-2003, 12:00 PM | #28 | |
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10-26-2003, 01:16 PM | #29 | ||
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You may like the changes BB, in fact I know you do, but they are not changes in perspective, they are changes. Period. You lost this one BB,not to mention both of Sister Golden Hair's corrections to your post, both of which are dead on and again show your lack of knowledge of Tolkien outside of jackson's film. Last edited by squinteyedsoutherner : 10-26-2003 at 02:53 PM. |
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10-26-2003, 02:16 PM | #30 | |
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For one, Tolkien isn't around anymore to agree with anyone of us on these things. And secondly I think that in most cases the posters have made Tolkien's personal view of things their own. It may look the same, but there is a difference. I myself have changed my opinion and interpretation of themes and scenes in LoTR somewhat after reading Letters and some of the HoME-series. And I think that I do not speak only for myself here when I say that on matters of Middle-earth, the word of Tolkien is rather final.
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10-26-2003, 04:21 PM | #31 | ||||
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BTW - I also said that Jackson did a great job on scenary - but scenary isn't what makes a great movie.
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10-26-2003, 05:44 PM | #32 |
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Here's the thing. It is one thing to read between the lines, and add what you think could have happened and is a possibility of happening. It is one thing to read the written word of the author and take it in a certain way. Not all that read the books agree on what Tolkien meant, and only Tolkien could clear that up. It is another thing however, to take the words of the author, which IMO is written in stone, and completely change what he stated and portray it, taking it in the opposite direction as an interpretation. What Tolkien says is the way it is, not what Jackson says. Jackson's ideas of what he thinks happened, isn't Tolkien's, nor is it written in stone. I get the feeling BB, that you hate the books as much as the so called "purists" hate the movie. Difference is, is that without the books, the movie wouldn't exist at all, so, the word of the books is final.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
10-26-2003, 05:51 PM | #33 | |
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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10-26-2003, 06:04 PM | #34 |
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Post deleted-- JD, I edited Millane's post, so this one was obselete. Sorry I couldn't get to it sooner. -- Azalea
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10-27-2003, 07:20 AM | #35 |
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Yeah...I wondered about that. [EDITED POST -- Lizra -- see JD's post above -- Azalea]
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10-27-2003, 09:06 AM | #36 |
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[OBSELETE QUOTE DELETED BY AZALEA]
[OBSELETE PORTION OF POST DELETED BY AZALEA -- Sween -- please see my note in JD's post above] But what is a purist? Is Tolkiens work so beyond reproach that no change can be view by some as been better? As allways its a matter of opinion and sometime i prefer the way PJ did it but most of the time the award goes to the prof and sometimes PJ did a very good job of capturing tolkien pretty much exctally (IMHO) something i think that is overlooked sometimes on this board. I like to view the films not so much as what is diffrent and whats worse and better but more what did he get extally right? Am i purist? Hell no im far more open minded than that
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10-27-2003, 11:54 AM | #37 |
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On Saruman's voice....I (IMO) can see this as a "Tolkien having it both ways" type of thing. Doesn't Gandalf warn someone(s) to beware of Saruman's voice when he speaks. (more than once even?) If people of the fellowship side still need to be warned of being swayed by a sentence or three, well...I think there might be a little more going on with his voice than just a "Dale Carnegie" course or something! A voice so seductive as this (coming from the highest wizard of the land) hints of magic. I'm sorry, no matter what is said in that letter.....the inference to "magic" can (easily) be made. I think the scene worked.
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10-27-2003, 12:05 PM | #38 |
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Spot on, Lizra. Remember the description Gandalf gives of how those whom the Voice conquers completely will still hear it urging them on long afterwards? And the subjective experiences of the Rohirrim when they're under its influence are clearly described. Even Theoden believes that Gandalf will leave them and join with Saruman at Orthanc.
The way Tolkien portrays "magic" is pretty ambiguous throughout (and is all the more powerful for that). He (JRRT) does specifically state that much of the broader background, genealogy and mechanics of Middle-Earth were intended to remain mysterious. |
10-27-2003, 12:32 PM | #39 |
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I don't see how any of this relates to the idea Theoden was posessed. Nor do I see how one gets any closer to understanding the story by claiming the author's own analysis of what he wrote is suspect, no matter how delicately phrased the critism.
And Lizra, I'm not arguing that it did or did not work in the film, that is subjective. I'm responding to the point that the text implies posession. I don't think it does, and I think Letters supports that view 100%. Also in letter 156, Tolkien states that Gandalf the white is under the same obligation as Gandalf the grey: "He is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or the dominating of wills" And "when the PHYSICAL powers of the enemy are too great he can act in an emergency as an angel....In ONE or TWO cases he does reveal a sudden power he twice rescues FARAMIR and he alone is left to forbid the entrance of the Lord of the Nazgul to Minas Tirith - and yet so powerful is the whole train of resistance that he himself has organized that no battle occurs: it passes to other mortal hands" No mention of a confrontation with Saruman through Theoden. I'm not BB, I'm not married to the idea that it did not happen, but unless someone digs something out of the text itself, letters or Home then I think Tolkien is on the record that Theoden was not posessed by Saruman, regardless of how well it worked or did not work in the film. Last edited by squinteyedsoutherner : 10-27-2003 at 01:03 PM. |
10-27-2003, 02:33 PM | #40 |
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I totally agree.
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