06-28-2003, 09:56 AM | #21 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Tolkien's England where the tale grew in the telling...
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You then pay local taxes for council sevices, insurance tax if you buy any insurance products (including motor insurance, house insurance etc), you pay stamp duties if you buy a new house, you pay excise duties on petrol, cigarettes and alchohol, indirectly (you don't always realise it, but its included in your bills) you pay environmental taxes when you use gas, electricity or pay your local council to take away your rubbish, you pay airport tax when you fly anywhere, you pay road tax if you drive a car, TV licence fees (which is a form of tax for watching state funded television), and various other fees and licences for things which the state supplies eg passports, medical perscriptions etc. Depending on your pattern of consumption, these taxes easily equate to about 10-15% of a person's annual salary if they are on high earnings. However, because these taxes are paid at the same rate by everyone, no matter how much they earn, they take up a much bigger share of income for those on average wages (say 15-20%). So far, you have a combined tax rate of between 50-55% and 63-68% depending on your income. Virtually everything you buy (goods or services) with the remaining 45-50% or 32-37% of your income is subject to 17.5% VAT (a kind of sales tax). Thus, approximately 9% or 7% (depending on your level of income) goes to pay VAT, bringing your total tax bill to approximately 59-64% if you are on average earnings, and 70-75% if you are a higher earner. Taking both together, they average out at just below 70%. I have tried to be prudent with these calculations - I haven't included inheritiance tax (which is only paid by relatively wealthy people, and only on death), capital gains taxes (which apply to disposals of only certain types of assets) nor have I included extra business taxes paid by people who are self-employed. The last point is this: the UK is considered to be a low tax country by European standards. Basic rates of income tax in Germany, Belgium, France, etc are much higher than the UK, their social security rates are also higher (as indicated by our Norwegian friend) and their VAT rates are also often higher. It may seem surprising, but I don't think the 70% rate is that unrealistic. Last edited by LutraMage : 06-28-2003 at 10:19 AM. |
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06-28-2003, 11:04 AM | #22 | |||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lindon
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“It is in a company's best interest to increase living conditions.” Quote:
Why do I feel that a 10% tax is fair for some and a 30% is fair for others? If Bill pays 30% and still can afford the Rolls, the million dollar house and his yacht and if Joe’s 10% means that he cannot afford to go on holidays, or pay for his kids college, who do you think is suffering the greater burden in maintaining the social framework, and who do you think is paying the greater personal cost for it? Quote:
European economy has been steadily growing, except for the current crisis period. And why do you think it was the US economy to take the dip first, then? Coincidence? Nope. Quote:
As for the dubious results, I meant the results of privatisations. Frequently we end up with worse and more expensive services, instead of more efficient ones. Quote:
It is not a debatable issue that by increasing their spending a government can decrease the level of a recession, and increase the speed of recovery. As for the bureaucracy, do not be misled by jokes about bananas and other trivia. The perceived weight of bureaucracy in many European countries is misleading. Sure, it is larger than necessary, and works worst that it could, but that is not the same to say small government would do better. In fact, I already had the personal experience that it can work worse. Rather, we need shape it according with our needs, not get rid of it. Besides, the EU is not the US. What is a good solution for the US is not necessarily good for the EU and vice versa. I doubt very much that the US neoliberal model can or should be a model for the EU economical development, the results would not be that positive since we have different problems.
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06-28-2003, 03:32 PM | #23 |
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DAMMIT! *is jealous* my vacation ends on Tuesday.
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06-28-2003, 08:49 PM | #24 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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06-28-2003, 09:01 PM | #25 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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06-28-2003, 11:39 PM | #26 |
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How can a flat income tax be fair to the poor or unskilled workers who make minimum wage or slightly higher? They still have to pay rent, feed their families, pay the electricity, water, etc., on the little income they make.
Everyone wants a good deal from the businesses they buy clothes from, from the restaurant they eat at (especially fast food) and from other businesses that hire cheap, unskilled labor and pay these people minimum wages and offer no health benefits nor retirement. And certainly not any kind of paid vacation. You think that it all works out? That capitalism pays for itself? I have news for you: your taxes are supplementing those wages that company pays their unskilled labor. When their children get sick they use Medicaid. When they can't feed their families they get food stamps. When they have serious injuries, they go to the emergency room of the local hospital and walk on the bill. Who takes care of that bill? Your government, and your taxes. You and I supplement those cheap wages so that the big businesses can make their profit. Your taxes are going into their pockets, keeping their cost low. Now I know what some of you right wing conservatives are saying *eyes certain people at the Moot that I know so well*: survival of the fittest and these are the choices these people make. Not so. Think about it. Not everone has the brains to go to college. Not everyone has the money and ideas to start their own business. These are the people that service society. They are the working poor. They live one paycheck away from eviction. You can't just say that because they are poor that they shouldn't fall in love, get married and have a family. But if I had my say, I'd make these companies pay a decent wage and force them to offer health insurance for their families. (Ok, brand me a liberal!) Maybe a paid vacation should be a luxury. Ok, I'll agree to that. But should life itself be a luxury? No. |
07-14-2003, 12:11 AM | #27 |
Hoplite Nomad
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
07-14-2003, 12:18 AM | #28 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Location: Plainsboro, NJ
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 07-14-2003 at 12:19 AM. |
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07-14-2003, 01:26 AM | #29 |
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
07-14-2003, 01:56 AM | #30 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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07-14-2003, 02:29 AM | #31 |
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Personally, my time is more important than money. This is not saying money is NOT important.
I would rather have a longer vacation and more free time. As long as I made enough to live at a level that I was at the very least comfortable with.
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
07-14-2003, 02:34 AM | #32 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I agree my time is valuable too - but with money comes freedom also and the only real way to become truly free is to work for yourself anyway - and even then there isn't much freedom.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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07-14-2003, 02:50 AM | #33 |
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QUICKLY I would say:
Time off and shorter hours would increase productivity Extreme hours don't increase efficiency, they decrease it. It might cut unemployement. But, those are just quick ideas.
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
07-14-2003, 02:53 AM | #34 |
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I mentioned a 3 day weekend. Maybe it would work to cut unemployment by have people work a staggered schedule. This way there is SOMEONE always working.
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
07-14-2003, 02:53 AM | #35 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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07-14-2003, 02:55 AM | #36 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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07-14-2003, 03:06 AM | #37 | |
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But, the following is just an economic question. Would a lower unemployment rate be a boon or a bust?
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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07-14-2003, 03:14 AM | #38 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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07-14-2003, 03:19 AM | #39 |
Hoplite Nomad
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Maybe this be an option. There could me 3 job tracks,
Full time Full benefits. 40 plus hrs Semi full time 30-32 hrs semi benefits Part time minor benefits if any.
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
07-14-2003, 03:29 AM | #40 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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And look at the role unions play too.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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